Pilot Tool Suggestions

[Milevan Faent]

Spyglass: This has been a staple for non-pilots pretty much since it was established as far as I know. It’s a great tool, and everyone uses it if they aren’t the pilot. It’s also one of 2 items that break the standard paradigm for tools. But here we run into a problem. Because of the value of Spyglass, Rangefinder is all but ignored outside of testing and practice.
 
To address this, I propose the following change:

• Max targeting range: 1000m.
• Marked targets have an outline colored to indicate damage conditions (green <75% health, yellow 25-74% health, red > 25% health
• Perhaps incorporate overall condition into the previous indicator as well: 75% or more of components undamaged = 50% brighter color, 50% of components damaged = neutral color, 25% or less components functional = 50% darker color

Rangefinder: As previously mentioned, this tool is rarely used. My previous suggestions are all in preparation for the suggestions I have for this tool, in order to bring both of them into viability.

• Allow the Rangefinder to mark targets like current Spyglass.
• Rangefinder shows the range to all targets marked by it, with a white outline instead of the green/yellow/red of the previous system.
• Max range: 2000m

As an idea, perhaps both only update their range/damage indicators while being viewed with their respective tool, but will show the last known condition/range while they are marked. This further encourages players to occasionally use these tools beyond those first 5 seconds of a fight. It also makes it a tempting option for a pilot, who may wish to sacrifice a tool in order to keep track of enemy health conditions. Obviously these indicators replace each other, with the most recent being the one shown.

[Hoja Lateralus]

Those are some interesting ideas. Personally I'd rather do:

Spyglass - no changes

Rangefinder - make the distance (number) visible to all the crew members, perhaps work more in a cooldoown mode (as if - you "mark" the ship once and for, say, 20 seconds everyone in the crew knows the excact distance).

New tool for checking the ship and/or components condition.

[Milevan Faent]

Those are some interesting ideas. Personally I'd rather do:

Spyglass - no changes

Rangefinder - make the distance (number) visible to all the crew members, perhaps work more in a cooldoown mode (as if - you "mark" the ship once and for, say, 20 seconds everyone in the crew knows the excact distance).

New tool for checking the ship and/or components condition.

My main reason for suggesting these changes was because in a game a few days ago, someone brought Rangefinder thinking it would be useful, but complained that every time he saw someone, he couldn't mark them for the team, which was frustrating them. That's why I think both should "mark" the enemy, though in different ways to give each an advantage and disadvantage so you have reason to debate between which to take. That's also why I gave them distance limitations.

[SirNotlag]

I'd have to agree that changes have to be made to make the range finder more viable, and your suggestions are a good starting point.
If we were to go with Mr. Disasters view id recommend making the third item binoculars

[sparklerfish]

Can we also remove those annoying spinning yellow circles?

[Milevan Faent]

Well, since I wrote these up along with the other items in an email for Muse, I might as well share my other ideas here too. I'll just be c/ping though, with minimal proof-reading from what I already wrote.

Pilots

Phoenix Claw: Moving on to the other tools, Phoenix Claw is on EVERY pilot right now. This could be viewed as a balance issue, though it’s not a big one. The spyglass has the same issue, but it’s obvious why either is required, and it’s not too big a deal in the long-run. However, that doesn’t mean I don’t have suggestions.

•   Change to activated like current Tar.
•   5 second duration
•   Cooldown: 10 seconds, +5 each time it’s used unless it’s not used for 30 seconds, max cooldown is 20 seconds.
•   Damage would be balanced to deal 25% of engine damage for light engines (just to throw out a rough concept)

Hydrogen: This would get a similar treatment, but going a bit in the other direction. However, here’s a big issue I’ve always had with Hydrogen. At first, I thought it would automatically make me rise up when I used it. That’s a bit un-intuitive, and even now, when I KNOW it doesn’t work like that, I still sometimes forget I have to actively try to go up. Thus, my changes:

•   Change to activated like Tar.
•   3 second duration
•   Cooldown: 10 seconds
•   Automatically rise for the duration unless you attempt to stop rising (trying to go down, which I believe is S by default).
•   Speed of rise may need to be reduced compared to current values, to maybe twice the normal speed, as right now it’s just a tad insane.
•   Damage needs to be tuned WAY down, as it currently deals enough damage to the balloon that even if I just tap it, I almost immediately lose my balloon afterward every time, and that’s just no fun. This leads to very few people even using it, which I think is a bad thing.

Chute Vent: This really has the same issues, and should probably go along the same lines as the previous suggestion. I can’t think of anything specific that would really differ between the changes I’d suggest for the two items.

Tar: Really, aside from perhaps letting it deploy just a bit faster, Tar is perfect now.

Kerosene: Really, this is perfect. Pretty much everyone uses it though, so perhaps some tweaking may be needed. I don’t have any ideas for it right now though.

Moonshine: Really, same situation for this as Kerosene. They’re really in good spots right now.

Drogue Chute: This is pretty much perfect as well.

Impact Bumpers: Also not something I can think of anything that needs to be changed at this time.

Engineer

Pipe Wrench: Well, I might as well share my original idea for this: https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,4143.msg70993.html

However, I’m perfectly fine with this idea going into a new tool rather than replacing the Pipe Wrench.

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The rest of the email I sent was specifically relating to items in the Dev App, so I won't include those comments here. But feel free to comment on these items in addition to what is in the OP.

[Dementio]

I am perfectly fine not using phoenix claw on Mobula and I don't think there is any reason to change to click to activate for it.
If hydrogen wasn't as insane as it is, the damage would be too much and it would be kinda useless. I don't want to rise quick, I would get buff for that, I want to be up there already.
Not a few people use hydrogen, almost every pilot I ever looked at in competitive has hydrogen, unless they are too scared to lose their balloon and bring drouge chute.
An engineer that keeps an eye on the balloon with a mallet can keep up with hydrogen pretty easily.
The problem with chute vent is that you rarely get any advantage from it. If you have gat/mortar or an artemis you lose arcs, while the enemy keeps their arcs.


Back to topic though.
None of these tools should recieve a limited target range. Especially not the range finder, since it could prove useful to even experienced players when you start going into 2km+, which means Lesmok Heavy Flak and Lumberjack at max range.
Ships give you visual feedback on how damaged they are. You can use a spyglass to check just how damaged they are, giving color indicator would just make things too easy.

If you want to spot stuff, get a spyglass. This is the disadvantage of the range finder. If you manage to know all ranges by just glancing at the map every once in a while, then you won't need the range finder. And I do believe it is intended, since it only is useful when you want to learn stuff and not serve as a replacement of the spyglass.

It might help being able to mark a spotted enemy with the range to make it's range visible for as long as the spot stays.

[Milevan Faent]

I am perfectly fine not using phoenix claw on Mobula and I don't think there is any reason to change to click to activate for it.
If hydrogen wasn't as insane as it is, the damage would be too much and it would be kinda useless. I don't want to rise quick, I would get buff for that, I want to be up there already.
Not a few people use hydrogen, almost every pilot I ever looked at in competitive has hydrogen, unless they are too scared to lose their balloon and bring drouge chute.
An engineer that keeps an eye on the balloon with a mallet can keep up with hydrogen pretty easily.
The problem with chute vent is that you rarely get any advantage from it. If you have gat/mortar or an artemis you lose arcs, while the enemy keeps their arcs.


Back to topic though.
None of these tools should recieve a limited target range. Especially not the range finder, since it could prove useful to even experienced players when you start going into 2km+, which means Lesmok Heavy Flak and Lumberjack at max range.
Ships give you visual feedback on how damaged they are. You can use a spyglass to check just how damaged they are, giving color indicator would just make things too easy.

If you want to spot stuff, get a spyglass. This is the disadvantage of the range finder. If you manage to know all ranges by just glancing at the map every once in a while, then you won't need the range finder. And I do believe it is intended, since it only is useful when you want to learn stuff and not serve as a replacement of the spyglass.

It might help being able to mark a spotted enemy with the range to make it's range visible for as long as the spot stays.

Outside Competitive (where I play, as I'm not comfortable playing at that level), Hydrogen is never used because the engies can never keep up with it, anti-balloon weapons are very common, and Drogue Chute is pretty much a requirement right now (or it has been the last few days I've been playing at least). And as far as it not being worth it, the problem is it's TOO extreme in both ends. Damage AND effect need to be turned down. If only one or the other was turned down, it would break completely to either OP or UP. And that's the problem. It IS broken, even if it's balanced for what it does.

And while you may be fine not bringing Phoenix Claw, I have never seen anyone (that wasn't a newbie captain) that didn't have it. The click-to-activate idea is to cover 2 issues. 1) People using it every time they turn, which brings such a huge advantage to their ship that it's impossible to stay out of their arc (I have abused the hell out of this plenty of times myself). And 2) People forget they have it on and end up accidentally breaking their engines. Kero and Moonshine are pretty obvious when they're being used because of the speed effects, but Phoenix is easy to miss, and easy to forget about. My change fixes both of these issues.

And technically, all of this IS on topic, as I've asked a mod to change the name of my thread. The range limitation is simply to keep my version of spyglass from STILL being used over the Rangefinder in all cases. And at max ranges, on pretty much any map, you can't even seen an enemy to spot them, and only the absolute best gunners can even hope to land a hit at those distances. Even within 2km, it's a miracle if they land a hit most of the time.

And yes, I'm well aware of the damage states. But they're a very subtle thing that, unless you stop to look at them with a spyglass if they're in the distance, or you're in brawling range, you can't ever see clear enough to identify how damaged they are. The indicator is a bit more newbie friendly as well. When I'm close enough to actually see the enemy clearly, yeah, I can at a glance identify how hurt they are. But on my Spire or Mobula Sniper? I'm completely incapable of identifying who is hurt more between potential targets, since I tend to stay a good distance away. Then I'd have to rely on my teammates to look through spy/range to tell me, and that means they're not shooting, which is generally more of a drawback.

The benefits of actually showing damage indicators or range while marked are actually pretty significant. Damage indicators greatly improve the quality of information gathering and ease the game for less experienced players, which will pretty much ALWAYS be the vast majority of players in this game. The range indicator allows gunners to be far more accurate, as they can use that to figure out (through experience) which part of their gun sight needs to be aimed at that ship to hit them. My reason for making the spyglass have the far shorter range is because, even now, you have to be pretty close to identify how damaged an enemy is. Having to be closer to mark them with a spyglass makes sense then, if it also gives easy to identify damage indicators.

[Dementio]

Hydrogen is never used because the engies can never keep up with it.

You got that wrong. There is still enough hydrogen going around, wether it is used or not, I do not know.
I would imagine if hydrogen and chute were tuned down, they might make vertical dodging rather hard, if not impossible.

The click-to-activate idea is to cover 2 issues. 1) People using it every time they turn, which brings such a huge advantage to their ship that it's impossible to stay out of their arc

How does click to activate solve that "issue". Won't people continue simply using it every time they turn? How does click-to-activate make it not used?

And 2) People forget they have it on and end up accidentally breaking their engines. Kero and Moonshine are pretty obvious when they're being used because of the speed effects, but Phoenix is easy to miss, and easy to forget about.

It is your own fault for not paying attention. Else everything has to be put to click-to-activate, since the same rules goes for almost all pilot tools. Having this concept apply only to phoenix claw, because it's "easy to forget about" is just silly.

The range limitation is simply to keep my version of spyglass from STILL being used over the Rangefinder in all cases.

I don't think Muse's idea was to have the range finder being used that often, hence it's "uselessness". And if that is indeed the case, well, we all know that Muse doesn't like to change their concepts for various reasons.

And yes, I'm well aware of the damage states. But they're a very subtle thing that, unless you stop to look at them with a spyglass if they're in the distance, or you're in brawling range, you can't ever see clear enough to identify how damaged they are. The indicator is a bit more newbie friendly as well. When I'm close enough to actually see the enemy clearly, yeah, I can at a glance identify how hurt they are. But on my Spire or Mobula Sniper? I'm completely incapable of identifying who is hurt more between potential targets, since I tend to stay a good distance away. Then I'd have to rely on my teammates to look through spy/range to tell me, and that means they're not shooting, which is generally more of a drawback.

Why do you have to rely on your teammates if you can just get one of your crewmembers to check with their spyglass/range finder. And if it is a drawback: Do you want to be 100% sure or do you trust your instinct?
I do aggree though that it could provide to be more newbie friendly, if they bother to read the tool description, they might even understand it.

My reason for making the spyglass have the far shorter range is because, even now, you have to be pretty close to identify how damaged an enemy is. Having to be closer to mark them with a spyglass makes sense then, if it also gives easy to identify damage indicators.

Allowing spotting only in a closer range, just because you have to be close to identify the damage does not make sense. What speaks against being able to spot from further away?
If it is Dunes and my ally is hidden then the spot would help me tell my ally the exact position the enemy is in, what direction they are looking at and if they are moving or not and since it is Dunes, the enemy and I could have more than 1km distance between us.

[Milevan Faent]

Hydrogen is never used because the engies can never keep up with it.

You got that wrong. There is still enough hydrogen going around, wether it is used or not, I do not know.
I would imagine if hydrogen and chute were tuned down, they might make vertical dodging rather hard, if not impossible.

The click-to-activate idea is to cover 2 issues. 1) People using it every time they turn, which brings such a huge advantage to their ship that it's impossible to stay out of their arc

How does click to activate solve that "issue". Won't people continue simply using it every time they turn? How does click-to-activate make it not used?

And 2) People forget they have it on and end up accidentally breaking their engines. Kero and Moonshine are pretty obvious when they're being used because of the speed effects, but Phoenix is easy to miss, and easy to forget about.

It is your own fault for not paying attention. Else everything has to be put to click-to-activate, since the same rules goes for almost all pilot tools. Having this concept apply only to phoenix claw, because it's "easy to forget about" is just silly.

The range limitation is simply to keep my version of spyglass from STILL being used over the Rangefinder in all cases.

I don't think Muse's idea was to have the range finder being used that often, hence it's "uselessness". And if that is indeed the case, well, we all know that Muse doesn't like to change their concepts for various reasons.

And yes, I'm well aware of the damage states. But they're a very subtle thing that, unless you stop to look at them with a spyglass if they're in the distance, or you're in brawling range, you can't ever see clear enough to identify how damaged they are. The indicator is a bit more newbie friendly as well. When I'm close enough to actually see the enemy clearly, yeah, I can at a glance identify how hurt they are. But on my Spire or Mobula Sniper? I'm completely incapable of identifying who is hurt more between potential targets, since I tend to stay a good distance away. Then I'd have to rely on my teammates to look through spy/range to tell me, and that means they're not shooting, which is generally more of a drawback.

Why do you have to rely on your teammates if you can just get one of your crewmembers to check with their spyglass/range finder. And if it is a drawback: Do you want to be 100% sure or do you trust your instinct?
I do aggree though that it could provide to be more newbie friendly, if they bother to read the tool description, they might even understand it.

My reason for making the spyglass have the far shorter range is because, even now, you have to be pretty close to identify how damaged an enemy is. Having to be closer to mark them with a spyglass makes sense then, if it also gives easy to identify damage indicators.

Allowing spotting only in a closer range, just because you have to be close to identify the damage does not make sense. What speaks against being able to spot from further away?
If it is Dunes and my ally is hidden then the spot would help me tell my ally the exact position the enemy is in, what direction they are looking at and if they are moving or not and since it is Dunes, the enemy and I could have more than 1km distance between us.

I speak of the matches I have been in more than anything. The number of times I have actually seen Hydrogen or Chute Vent (or even ANY vertical dodging) can be countered almost on my hands. I may just end up stuck in lobbies with low-levels that don't know squat, or maybe that's just how my luck plays out, but that's what I've experienced.

As to how "click-to-activate" solves the issues, it's the cooldown that comes with it that solves the over-use issue, not the click-to-activate itself.

And I am FAR from the only person who "forgets" about it. There is no visual indicator to remind you that the tool is active. If you turn it on as you start dodging in the middle of a chaotic fight, and have to focus on 5 things at once, you WILL eventually forget to turn off a tool. It's hardly something that happens all the time, but the number of times I've forgotten as I've been in the middle of calling out orders, dodging fire, waiting for my team to return fire, and keeping track of enemy and ally locations is high enough that I think it's warranted. Certainly I know I'm not the ONLY person to do this.

As far as Muse is concerned, they ARE actually looking in to ways to change the Rangefinder. It is a concern to them, as they mentioned on one of the Dev Firesides when I asked about it.

And I wasn't referring to the members on the other ship, but my own when I said "teammates". I also don't want to stop them from doing their jobs of keeping the guns firing and the ship alive to ask "how damaged is that ship over there?" when this change would let me just glance at an already targeted ship to find out myself.

As far as reading the description goes, these changes are also semi-intuitive, so looking at the colors and their effects, most people could within 2-3 games at the MOST figure out what is happening, even if they don't read the descriptions.

And even on Dunes, you rarely see an enemy farther than 2km, so if at least 1 person on the crew has Range, you can still target the enemy. My goal with these changes was to encourage variety, not encourage people to only take Spy, which is the only tool anyone takes right now. If people take Rangefinder, everyone yells at them, and people quit. I've seen it happen, so I know that's true. This is of course assuming they don't just sit there ignoring what everyone says, which is just as damaging to a crew. Having both able to mark, each with a different benefit, encourages diversity in load-outs, provides an option aside from just Spyglass, and if other, similar tools are introduced, could provide even more diverse gameplay.

Also, in case you didn't notice it in my earlier post, all of this was already shared with the Devs via an email, and Bubbles actually expressed an interest in the ideas, so they're definitely being considered at least.

[Dementio]

Well, I can say that vertical dodging with these tools is a thing and since I use vertical dodging myself pretty often without instant losing my balloon, I am against the decision of a weaker/slower hydrogen/chute vent. Of course troubles arrive when balloon poping gets thrown into the mix, but that is a topic in and of itself.

Since when does click-to-activate introduce a cooldown?

The visual indicator that the tool is active selected is usually visible on the bottom of your screen. The selected tool is highlighted. If you can't be bothered glancing at the bottom of your screen, then I wonder how you could be bothered looking at your own throttle which does not move with your screen and is thus not visible 100% of the time.
Perhaps this game is too demanding, for pilots at least, but I don't know if click-to-activate on everything would solve that.

If you are that concerned to know just how damaged an enemy ship is, maybe you should bring a spyglass for yourself. Give up at least one superior mobility/utility tool to gain superior knowledge. As a pilot, you decide if it is worth it.


I am not against changing (= improving) the range finder or against a possible addition to the spyglass. I just think some of your changes are making it a bit too easy, if they are not completely unnecessary (limiting spotting to range). But that is only my opinion.

[GeoRmr]

My suggestions:

Spyglass - keep as is

Rangefinder - remove the targeting circles (they are just terrible), give it the ability to spot but only for a limited time (like captain spot, maybe diagonal lines) - when only range finder has been used to spot no range is displayed, when the ship has been spotted by a spyglass and the range finder, the range is displayed to all team members (all ships) and the range-finder spot lasts the duration of the spyglass spot.

Edit: Instead of removing the targeting circles add a check-box in the options menu for players to turn them off.

Second Edit: Instead of raw distance, display lateral distance and angle of elevation.

Third Edit: Range finder spots don't show on the map or compass.

[HamsterIV]

One thing I would like to see on the range finder is the ability to mark non ship objects like mines and buildings. preferentially with a circle and range to circle on all the crew member's UI's for as long as the crewmember is holding down the mouse on the target. This could be used to bring the captain's attention to objects that can't be seen from the helm. Such as when a ship is descending on top of a building in paratan rumble. It could also be used to point out targets in clouds for when the spyglass fails.

[Milevan Faent]

New Pilot Tool: Balloon Armor

While active, balloon takes 50% less damage, but rising speed is reduced by X%, and falling speed is increased by Y%. Lasts for 3 seconds after turned off. Replace X and Y with balanced numbers.

Assuming a visual effect is added, this would basically be a semi-flexible but durable and very light material that can be retracted and stored in sections around the balloons. When on, they would cover the balloon. Assuming no visual is added, this would still be the explanation of why the balloon is taking less damage. This is basically a tool to aid pilots in dealing with balloon popping. Right now, my personal experience shows me that if my balloon pops, and the enemy is any good, and my crew isn't really good, I'm dead. And nothing I as a Pilot can do will make any difference. Now maybe I've just never learned how, but considering how often I've run into this tactic lately, it's getting a bit ridiculous how often I'm killed just because my team doesn't have a super-engie or something. I have not found any piloting tactics that REALLY work against it. There are some that can slow the death, some that can work against 1 or 2 ships that lack maneuverability, but they're still generally kind of hopeless situations. And this is with Drogue Chute. That doesn't do enough to save you.

Mind you, I'm talking about when you get to the bottom. At that point, there's very little if anything you can do to recover, and that's why I'm making this item suggestion. At least if I, as a Pilot, can armor up my balloon to keep them from insta-popping it every time it comes back up, I might stand a CHANCE of recovering.