Info > Feedback and Suggestions
Hull and armor system overhaul
Dementio:
Would rams/terrain still do any significant damage with your new system?
--- Quote from: Van-Tuz on October 02, 2014, 11:43:28 am ---In the current system to exploit the permanent damage you need to break trough armor. In some cases (Galleon) it's so difficult that 90% of the battle it's not giving any advantage.
--- End quote ---
Destroying a Galleon's armor is supposed to be difficult. Destroying armor never really gives any ship an advantage, only the ability to kill. Do you want to kill them and risk being shot by them?
--- Quote from: Van-Tuz on October 02, 2014, 11:43:28 am ---The repair speed won't be fast. But other team would have to act quickly to exploit it.
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The other team might not even have a chance to exploit it at all, if the enemy team quick on the draw and picks them off 1by1 at the spawn directly, while they mindlessly rush in to get the chance to exploit. If they don't rush in like that or the enemy team just moves back a bit, there is a high chance that all the effort of getting hull damage has brought nothing at all since it is getting repaired, bit by bit.
Basically, there is a very high chance that exploiting hull damage will be nigh impossible and just plain pointless. If this is positive or negative is debatable.
--- Quote from: Van-Tuz on October 02, 2014, 11:43:28 am ---The current "shoot only when red" system is:
* Very punishing for newcomers. The game has lost a lot of new captains and gunners because of that.
* Limits the skill ceiling for explosive weapons by presenting only one valid option.
* Makes exploiting hull damage much more difficult than it should.
* As a result of previous point it limits the number of tactical choices. (Examples were presented earlier)
--- End quote ---
Yes it is punishing if you refuse to understand the basics. They might not be explained well enough though in the tutorials at the moment. But if the hull can be repaired and armor stays and continues to take little to no damage, while also absorbing a relatively big amount of hull damage on certain ships that choose to have the most DR.
Your suggestion is in contrast very punishing for the own ship. If the hull engineer shoots the guns, he can't shoot the gun because the hull will get damage, even when the armor is up. In the current system your armor takes damage, but not your hull and on a dodge ship you can, at some points, afford this damage.
This might make the life of an engineer a tiny bit more stressful, just an assumption though.
It may limit the skill ceiling, but I can't see how your system "unlimits" it. Shooting while the armor is up is more of a desperate move to get a kill quickly before bad stuff happens.
You can't see how much armor damage the enemy ship took, so it, to me, sounds less like "adapting" and more like "being desperate". Especially since destroying the armor is still a viable option, why would I risk not killing it during the armor break?
Disagree on point 3. In the current system there will always be hull damage to be exploited, until the ship does die.
In your system, the "repairable hull" is actually the exploitable part, because you won't die that easily if you just camp in a corner for 2 minutes and then be back at full health.
Your system introduces a new tactic: "Camp in a corner for 2 minutes to be back at full health".
Edit: Redria and I are hiveminding on how to exploit a repairable hull.
Omniraptor:
A good solution to non-regenerating health is powerup spawns (like halo:ce had), but they would be next to impossible to work into the game in terms of theme and aesthetics.
Milevan Faent:
--- Quote from: Omniraptor on October 02, 2014, 10:50:12 pm ---A good solution to non-regenerating health is powerup spawns (like halo:ce had), but they would be next to impossible to work into the game in terms of theme and aesthetics.
--- End quote ---
*cough*co-ophaspowerupspawns*cough*
Van-Tuz:
--- Quote from: redria on October 02, 2014, 01:41:32 pm ---With your modifications, a heavily damaged ship is a dead ship. I win a battle and have 2 choices - hide in a corner of the map to repair my permahull, or enter a fight knowing I have literally no way to prevent death.
Currently a heavily damaged ship can be used successfully...
--- End quote ---
That's the intended behaviour from the beginning. Taking hull damage is supposed to make you easier target next time. That's a handicap for a losing team to make matches more even. But currently it's not quite exploitable. Many people here (including me) said that a ship with a damaged hull isn't an easy target. That means the intended feature is not working or working not effectively enough.
--- Quote from: Dementio on October 02, 2014, 02:18:39 pm ---1) Would rams/terrain still do any significant damage with your new system?
2) The other team might not even have a chance to exploit it at all, if the enemy team quick on the draw and picks them off 1by1 at the spawn directly, while they mindlessly rush in to get the chance to exploit.
3) Your suggestion is in contrast very punishing for the own ship. If the hull engineer shoots the guns, he can't shoot the gun because the hull will get damage, even when the armor is up.
4) It may limit the skill ceiling, but I can't see how your system "unlimits" it. Shooting while the armor is up is more of a desperate move to get a kill quickly before bad stuff happens.
You can't see how much armor damage the enemy ship took, so it, to me, sounds less like "adapting" and more like "being desperate". Especially since destroying the armor is still a viable option, why would I risk not killing it during the armor break?
5) If they don't rush in like that or the enemy team just moves back a bit, there is a high chance that all the effort of getting hull damage has brought nothing at all since it is getting repaired, bit by bit.
...
In your system, the "repairable hull" is actually the exploitable part, because you won't die that easily if you just camp in a corner for 2 minutes and then be back at full health.
Your system introduces a new tactic: "Camp in a corner for 2 minutes to be back at full health".
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1) Sure. I don't see a reason why not. But with increased hull health ships would be able to take a few more hits.
2) That situation is much more likely to happen in the current system. You just don't have enough time in 2 v 1 to break trough armor and exploit hull. With the ability to exploit hull right from the start it would be easier.
3) Same situation with the current system. Engineer can't shoot the gun when trying to keep armor repaired.
4) Actually you can. When ships take hull damage they do show visual damage. The ability to find out the enemy hull's status and knowing when it's easier to make a finishing blow ignoring the armor would become the parts of the gunner "skill"
5) The key word is "bit by bit". The repairs are supposed to take time. Sometimes it would force players to retreat instead of proceeding to spawncamp. And sometimes you just won't have a time to completely repair. When you need to hold the captured point for example.
The exact amount of time needed to repair the hull is not strictly defined and could be tweaked.
macmacnick:
You're interpreting it all wrong. It works, you must be more cautious when you are damaged. If you are the damaged ship, you take a risk entering any engagement, and are the higher priority target. Your views on gameplay are flawed as sometimes the objective is to disable and not to immediately kill, as disabling makes it easier to defeat the enemy, giving the weapons enough time to strip armor off and reveal their hull, and then allowing for the kill.
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