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Squidslinger Gilder:

--- Quote from: sparklerfish on September 21, 2014, 02:30:45 pm ---Yesterday I was in a lobby and someone on the opposing team complimented our gunner on "his mining skills".  When they discovered I am not a he, the lobby collapsed into the chaos, immaturity, and offensive remarks that always come along with being a woman on the internet and especially in an online game.  I try to stick to flying with friends so that this occurs less often, but it is really frustrating to see that this is still so commonplace in a community that prides itself on being friendlier and better than other online games.

Women who play games are just people who play games.  Stop freaking out.  And no, you can't have my phone number.

--- End quote ---

Reminds me of women I used to run with back in WoW years ago. Did not even know they were female till finally they spoke. Absolutely terrified of being found out after experiences like this. When they found out we weren't psychos, they finally opened up.

Caught a little bit of it myself when I started in WoW. Had been recommended to start as a female toon since getting help was easier as one, or so I was told. I wasn't sure it was true till I saw it first hand. The sad part was, along with it came a lot of "Are you a girl?", "do you have a picture?", and even a few "do you cyber?" questions. Few people I quested with early on kept asking till I told them. When they found out I was a guy, they never quested with me again. Was one kid who was literally infatuated with my toon and after he discovered the truth, I never saw him log in again. The problems got less as time went but I learned to quickly state,"<guy not girl." Think the playerbase also over time realized that MMORPG sometimes means "Many Men Online Role Playing Girls." :D

redria:
I've seen this stuff pop up a couple times and I always want to contribute, but I'm not sure how. As this is a discussion, maybe now is the best time to take a shot.

First, I'll say: Ladies, men, and anyone who identifies by anything else, if someone offends you - especially someone you know or spend time around more regularly - please let them know. Hopefully they will take it in stride an do their best to censor themselves around you. Eventually this would become second nature and start carrying over into other areas of their life. Then you reach the point where the offensive behavior is instinct and the person can instinctively pass it on to their children and, in the long run, help eliminate something.
Even if it doesn't go that far, knowing is half of the battle. If something doesn't compute as offensive for me, I won't realize that it is for someone else. Which ties into my next point, the discussion bit.



Regarding the OP (part 1), that is messed up. Maybe I don't pay attention enough since I haven't seen things as bad as you mention. But what you've experienced is not something that should ever be the case. I'm ashamed that it happens on GoIO enough for you to even have to post here.

Regarding the OP (part 2) and Andika's post, that is equally messed up, but I can delve a little deeper in to that.
Concept-wise, the idea of an exclusive group grates against what it is to be a social human. If you say you have a group and I can't participate, it bothers me, whether it is something I even need to be in or not. Conceptually I would feel mollified if there was an alternative group that was equally exclusive in the opposite direction.

Conceptually, there are no male exclusive groups. There are no male exclusive events. Your average guy, upon seeing a female exclusive event, would feel insulted. Certainly no reason to make a scene, but why are you being excluded? You are nice to people. You don't do or say anything offensive. Some of your female friends are going to be in it. But you can't.

Realistically you also have to look at the female perspective, and actually comprehend. Go in to a lobby and try to make a group. If you are successful, odds are you just made a male-exclusive group. You didn't try to. If a female was there you would have taken her too. But they weren't. Now imagine you are female looking for a group (and correct me if/when I'm wrong, please). Every group is inherently almost male exclusive. Not in name. Not in rule. But here you are trying to break in on the guy's club. Are you really welcome? Are you really welcomed, or just tolerated because female?

Genders do exist, and are especially noticeable in video games which are so predominately male. It is inevitable that a statistically significant percentage of females to play may at some point find the pre-existing groups to be equivalent to male-exclusive. In this light, making a female-exclusive group makes sense for relief. Explicitly making it exclusive makes sense. But it clashes with the male perspective that the male groups are not exclusive, so a female exclusive group seems like nonsense to some guys.

Long story short, guys don't understand the need for the group, and don't understand that they don't understand. Shame on us.



In the larger context, getting in to the ideas of yes-all-women and not-all-men, and the way men treat women in casual encounters in person and online.

From the male perspective. I feel safe walking alone. I never get random compliments on my appearance from strangers, but I would enjoy them. I am not a small man, and I'm pretty confident that if attacked I could probably fend off an attacker even without training. I never feel threatened.
"You complain about being complimented by strangers? What??"

From my perception of the female perspective from speaking with friends (please please please take this with a grain of salt. May be dramatized since I don't actually know). In general statistical terms, women are weaker/smaller than men physically. You are told stories from the news, the internet, from friends and family about attacks, sexual assault, rape, etc. Walking alone, the person giving you a smile and a compliment while passing by could be friendly, or could be wondering how best to get you alone. In person and online, comments could be either kind or threatening. You want to give someone the benefit of the doubt, but if you are wrong, it costs you so much.
"Of course I complain about getting complimented by strangers."

For guys, imagine that everyone has a gun - except you. People on the street. People in your work office. People online. Everyone. But you don't. Everyone else carries this around with them. Maybe they never use it in their life. But they could. Everyone always has this power except for you. And everyone knows it. Someone smiles at you on the street. Is that a friendly smile or a threatening smile? Someone actively threatens to shoot you. When can you feel safe? You can't live a life in fear. But you also can't be stupid. You go home to have some fun time online, but everyone there has guns. If you let them know you don't have one, everyone makes fun of you and threatens you. You try to make a group only for a few people you've met without guns and everyone with a gun gets up in arms (get it?) about being excluded.
Does that start to make sense?



I don't have an answer. Here or in the world as a bigger place. Girls, I'm sorry. Guys, acknowledge and try to understand.
We can't control anyone but ourselves, and if we aren't around when bad things happen we can't help that either. But we can do our best to be observant when we are around and defend what is right.


TL;DR: Guys, we don't even understand how much we don't understand. Read my analogy. Find a girl and talk to them about it with absolutely no condescending or insulting treatment of the girl who tries to explain.
Girls, we don't even realize how much we don't understand. It isn't an excuse, but if a guy asks you to explain and you can, please try to help us understand better.

sparklerfish:
Men getting upset about a female gamer group is like white people getting upset that there's no "White History Month".

Male gamers inherently enjoy privileges that female gamers do not, even if you aren't conscious of them and aren't actually sexist yourself.  Here's a pretty well-articulated list (not written by me):
http://www.polygon.com/2014/4/23/5640678/playing-with-privilege-the-invisible-benefits-of-gaming-while-male

Nobody is trying to play the victim or beg for "protection" or be fragile damsels in distress that need strong men to rescue us.  Just bringing issues to light that are a big problem in the gaming community in general that also affect the community of Guns of Icarus, and asking that you do not be dismissive of issues that do disproportionately affect women.  Yes, anyone can be bullied or harassed, and no one is saying that isn't a problem as well, but women are subject to harassment merely for being women and subjected to harassment that targets their femaleness specifically.

Lydia Litvyak:

--- Quote from: redria on September 22, 2014, 01:03:33 pm ---
Realistically you also have to look at the female perspective, and actually comprehend. Go in to a lobby and try to make a group. If you are successful, odds are you just made a male-exclusive group. You didn't try to. If a female was there you would have taken her too. But they weren't. Now imagine you are female looking for a group (and correct me if/when I'm wrong, please). Every group is inherently almost male exclusive. Not in name. Not in rule. But here you are trying to break in on the guy's club. Are you really welcome? Are you really welcomed, or just tolerated because female?

Genders do exist, and are especially noticeable in video games which are so predominately male. It is inevitable that a statistically significant percentage of females to play may at some point find the pre-existing groups to be equivalent to male-exclusive. In this light, making a female-exclusive group makes sense for relief. Explicitly making it exclusive makes sense. But it clashes with the male perspective that the male groups are not exclusive, so a female exclusive group seems like nonsense to some guys.

Long story short, guys don't understand the need for the group, and don't understand that they don't understand. Shame on us.

--- End quote ---

Please read everything redria wrote, especially this part.

redria:

--- Quote from: Lydia Litvyak on September 22, 2014, 03:58:03 pm ---Please read everything redria wrote, especially this part.

--- End quote ---
It's hard, because I'll read some things that girls write on here and elsewhere and, even knowing and comprehending, it will really bother me until I take a moment to step back and take a second look. It is a hard subject to discuss with guys because our first instinct is indignation. I treat women well, so why is this something that is excluding me, or singling me out as a male? The point is that it both is and isn't, but simply because we aren't experiencing a lifetime of being treated even ever so slightly differently, our natural inclination is rejection of the problem.

As a guy probably the most important things you can do are:

* Understand and make sure you take a second look at situations whenever you feel slighted. The fact that you feel slighted indicates that you are probably rejecting the greater problem to focus on your own situation. This hurts the other party, keeps you in the dark, and does nothing to help the problem at large.
* Talk to your other male friends about it. Probably do it one-on-one if you can. You can probably expect annoyed responses. Use an analogy. Ask them to talk to their closest female friend, their mom, their sister, anyone. Ask them to do it seriously, with the intent to learn.
I can't prevent a troll if I'm not there. I don't think Lydia is asking me to go online and watch for trolls. Better reporting would help from everyone.
My responsibility in this time and this point in society is to be aware of my circumstances and the the circumstances of women in general. My responsibility is to listen for cues from my friends and family. If I hear something, the key is to not just let it slide. I fully admit, I'm not sure what I expect to hear, or how obvious it will be. But if I can have a heart-to-heart with at least one person and make them understand, then I will be contributing, a part of the path to a solution.

I realize I'm going a bit off on a much more broad tangent than the OP, but I think maybe that is the point. The problems here stem from the real world. If we better educate this community on how to respect a human as a human at all times, and to understand that they grew up in entirely different circumstances from ourselves, then the community will improve itself both online and in the real world.

If you've read all of these 2 posts, thank you. I hope it helped teach you something, male or female, or at least gave you a question to go ask somebody. The best answer you can have for yourself is honest, open, and respectful communication with the relevant gender. I'm not perfect. Nobody is. But we can only improve ourselves by expanding the horizons of our understanding of each other (god that sounds cheesy).

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