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Keyvias:
@Lydia,
I can't speak for the community, but I can speak for the dev staff. We would never ask you to be quiet and I'll be honest how we look takes such a far back seat to how our players feel. As I said I welcome any discussion on the topic.

Interesting side note: you have one of the highest report to capture ratios. (Basically how many of your reports turn into warnings and/or bans.) So thank you for the effective reports.

@Topic
Also everyone has had a different experience in the game. Some people haven't seen much sexism, some have seen way too much, some have seen provoked trolling and others have seen psychotic attacks as soon as the mic goes on. This doesn't mean anyone's experiences are right/wrong, but it is important to note due to different playtimes, styles, and personalities we find ourselves in different situations and with different experiences.
If someone is offering what they have seen that isn't to say what you've seen is incorrect and vice versa.
If I said I don't see a lot of sexism, that doesn't mean it doesn't exist, it probably means my green name makes a lot of jerks shut up.
So when talking about your own experiences or someone else's let's keep in mind that we all have lived amazing different lives and had amazingly different game experiences.
If you haven't experienced sexism, that's great! But how many female players have you interacted with, were they forced to do something special to avoid sexist comments, did you do anything special to stop someone who start making sexist comments. Let's focus on the fact that everyone here at their base does not want people's feelings to be hurt.

No one in here is voting for more sexist comments and if you are feel free to raise your hand so I can give a swift kick.

So lets take a look at the most important facts:
People are experiencing sexism. We are not saying everyone is doing sexism, but if someone they have experienced it, then it exists.
What options do we have that we are not taking advantage of. From a dev, mod, and few kind members of the community standpoint.

No I do not propose that we solve all sexism and gender issues on the internet, but if there is something I, the team, or us having this discussion can do better, I would be happy to hear it.

B'Elanna:
I have issue with brushing things like this off by calling it trolling and it's not the anonymity that makes people say these things either, and I have a very good video about it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KHEkR5yb9A

Most of you won't watch but it's really well explained.

HamsterIV:

--- Quote from: Lydia Litvyak on September 19, 2014, 12:44:13 pm ---And yet my experiences here have been worse than my experiences in dota. I do not know what am I supposed to do here. Should I just keep quiet and not voice my discomfort because it would make us look bad, or because it would hurt the community's ego?

--- End quote ---

You should speak your mind and be harsh when you feel it is justified. My ego is bruised by the comparison but it will recover. I am proud to be part of this community, I proudly tell people it is one of the nicest places on the internet. I spend more time here than I do on some of my other hobby forums because it is so nice. I got a little defensive when I read your words, but they are as valid as my own. Perhaps a little more so since I have never played DotA and know it only by reputation. For any offense I have given, I am sorry.

Andika:
What I honestly don't get is why, whenever female players decide to start up a female-focused group or clan, it always turns into such an ISSUE in the community (in any game i've been in so far), whereas if male players come up with a male-focused clan or group, everyone simply wishes them good luck and lets them be and have fun together. Nobody starts discussions about sexism in those threads, nobody makes fun of those male-perspective groups/clans, and nobody needs to lock those threads in the end.

In fact it is so much of a custom in the world of the internet to create male-focused groups based on male ideals and carrying male names that we do not even anymore recognize them as gendered. Just think about all the popular clan names that start like "sons of blah blah", "brothers of blah blah", "men of whatever", "kings of this and that" and so on.  You might say that those groups are neutral in the sense that they welcome female players too, but in fact most female players find it hard to identify with a group whose very name excludes them by definition.

Note that I am not criticizing these group names, I am aware of how customary they are and I am also aware that those who founded them had no intentions of excluding women, they were simply following a widely accepted tradition.

What I want to point out is that having a gaming group like "girls of icarus" is not, in any way, different from calling a clan "boys of icarus". Both are gendered in a way, and both exclude a group of people at least in their names, though neither would be totally exclusive if someone was willing and able to adopt the perspective of the group. Yet, the difference is that a "boys of icarus" forum thread would never have generated this kind of backlash that people experienced after suggesting a "girls of icarus" gaming group.  So then why not treat a female-focused gaming group in the same neutral, customary way as we are treating all of the millions of male-focused ones? Wish them good luck, welcome their group to the community, and that's it all.

Also, I am one of those players who have simply stopped using microphone even though I have one and could use it in most cases. Even with all the support and neutral treatment female players nowadays receive from many guys in games, it is actually still better to be the all-time forever "silent dude with the female character" than the occasionally, once or twice harrassed "stupid b*tch". There is simply a tangible difference in how people treat you, what offences they tell you, how much they listen to your opinion and so on. In simple terms, it is usually fun to be the silent dude, and it is often not fun to be the talking female player. I wanna have fun when I play computer games. And I don't mind guys calling me a "dude". It so doesn't matter to me.

Omniraptor:
This is a really confusing/complicated issue, make sure you think about it before you post.

First off, It's pretty sad seeing a double standard like this. Like, nobody complained when Polaris announced they were only recruiting russian-speaking people. Nobody barged into the recruitment thread making dumb jokes about vodka and bears, or angry rants about Putin's foreign policy. It was just a group of people wanting to play together.

1. Anyway, regarding everyday garden-variety in-game harassment, i.e. unwelcome references to any player's gender, threats, etc. It's good to keep reporting that stuff. However, silent bans are a bad deterrent to assholes who haven't spoken up yet, and when it comes to catcalls... one is too many. So we really need to stop the harassment proactively, instead of just with retroactive invisible bans.

This might be a bad idea, but IMO it's also super important to call out harassment as the BS it is, loudly and publicly. This is directed at everyone, mostly dudes because face it, we're the majority here. If we, the (hopefully decent) majority make it clear that harassing people for any reason (including the sound of their perecived gender) is bad, it will create a chilling effect and stop the harassment before it is said. More fun for everyone except the harassers.

Again, there needs to be more work done here, to PROACTIVELY prevent bad stuff from happening. Skrim mentioned a wall of shame idea, that could maybe work, we'd have to talk about it more.

2. Forum denizens. Mezhu's a great guy. He also thought that "borg" was bad enough that it deserved its own satirical parody "morg". That's a little weird, because I don't see anything in "borg" bad enough to be worth mocking, but evidently mezhu disagrees. I'd like to know why. He doesn't deserve to be yelled at like that. I really don't get the joke either, but that's no excuse for making graphic references to mezhu's genitals. Not cool.


To people saying "trolling/harassment/sexism is a bigger problem than GOI", I say that's BS. Torrential rain is also a bigger problem than my house, but it doesn't keep me from having a roof and staying dry and cozy despite it. We have power to change this community for the better, and we should use it. The MUSE team seem to be onboard with the general purpose, certainly.

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