Author Topic: Harpoons and white wailer.  (Read 12695 times)

Offline JinxedHatesYou

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Harpoons and white wailer.
« on: August 26, 2014, 08:37:22 am »
Greetings.
I am here to talk about harpoons.

Currently, I am trying to get White Wailer achievement, which requires pilot to destroy 4 harpooned ships.
3 of those kills I already scored before harpoons were fixed by developers and for several days now I am trying to get this last one kills.
To give you a retrospective of how harpoons useless currently - I was reported several times by friendly ship's crew for using harpoons on my ship.

As I understand the situation, harpoons attach to enemy ship's hull and remain attached for ~5 seconds. During this time the harpoon pulls the ships together.
Let us review the tactical use of harpoons on different ships:

Pyramidion.
The most obvious spot for harpoon on pyramidion is either one of both of fore guns. Deploying them on port beam means a larger hitbox for enemy and issues with control of the ship during the harpooning.
Let us review the double harpoon pyra first:
Pyramidion known as most preferable ship in ramming, so the basic idea of this build was to harpoon the enemy with both harpoons in same time, deploy moonshine at the same time and simply crush the enemy in mountain or any other obstacle behind them. If obstacle is not present then circle around and repeat the manevour.
This is a build I used to get my first 3 kills and it worked quite well, actually. I had a really good time with it. Currently, this build is not longer viable because the only thing you are going to kill with it is a Spire. And it happens as rare as hell too - you need to ram it at least two or three times for it to be a success.
If a single harpoon misses the target - the attached harpoon drags your ship away from the target up to the point when you simply pass by it without even scratching it.
More common scenario - both harpoons miss since they are quite difficult guns to hande and in this case you just do not receive the essential speed boost from them. Without this boost you can hardly kill even yourself.

Therefore: double harpoon pyramidion is no longer an option.
Next build to investigate is a single harpoon pyra. I decided to deploy gatling gun as secondary gun in order to remove the outer layer of hull before the ram happens and it was actually quite a good idea.
But the old problem arisen - it is almost impossible to steer your pyramidion when only one single harpoon is attached to enemy ship, therefore you are missing your target most of the times or hit was not direct, therefore softening the damage.
But still, even if you are successfull with this build - only things you are able to kill with a great deal of luck are spire and mobula.

Galleon is a good target only because of his enourmous size, therefore making it very easy for crew to aim, but it is impossible to penetrate his hull quick enough and it takes at lest 3 successfull attempts to bring him down. He is just too damn fat.
Golfish and squid are good target only if you approach them either directly or behind, but if harpoon hit them at least one inch to the left from the center - it *will* steer aside and avoid your hit by natural drag power. Harpooning the squid or fish which moves perpendicular relatively your ship is simply not an option - it is a 100% guarantee of missed ram.

Other viable option for a secondary gun is one of disablers - either flamthrower or a carronade. In this case your plan is to bring the ship down on the ground and let it die because of the natural damage, but again - harpoon pulls your ship aside and towards the enemy making the steering very hard in tight spots as well as moving the gunner's gun out of the arc. Also, killing the ship that way takes much more than 5 seconds - it is very and very easy for that ship to stay unharpooned upon death, turning all your attempts to vain. Even if you manage to kill it, of course.

Therefore colclussion: pyramidion is not a viable option, if a target is not a spire with lvl 1 crew.

Squid: if the ship was harpooned with fore gun, you will be unable to steer away and get arc on starboard gun. You got the ship 'pooned and this is about it - you can only pray that they have their outer layer of hull down and less that one bar of permament hull up. Harpooning with starboard gun results in almost immediate death of squid. The only viable option is to harpoon with aft gun and drag the enemy away from the point, for example, like a tow truck.
But this will not score you a harpooned kill.

Therefore conclussion: squid is completely useless with harpoons, unless on aft during the point capture.

Goldish: suffers the same fate as squid. Harpoon as light gun can be installed only on port and starboard, which is instant hazard to ship since of it's rather low hull.

Therefore conclussion: harpoons are not the option for this ship.

Mobula: With harpoon as main gun it *might* be possible to destroy the enemy ship from lower deck guns before it crashes into you and destroys you. It takes a very short range though and mobulas are not exactly the best choice of the ship when up-close personal. And be ready for upper deck guns to be out of arc, since you will be unable to steer aside to give them arc.

Therefore conclussion: you might be able to kill swabbieship with it.

Spire: I am not even going to comment on this one.

Therefore conclussion: kill Spire with harpoons on board with fire.

Galleon: Galleon is able to tow enemy ships away from points using it's aft gun, but port harpoon will drag you aside ruining the arc for lower deck port beam guns. Just because the upper deck port beam gun places very slightly closer to aft rather than on center.

Therefore: harpoon on galleon is useless.

Final conclussion: It is nearly impossible to find a good use for harpoon. And almost absolutely impossible to actually kill a harpooned ship after issued fix for it.

I say that it should be improved somehow.

Offline GeoRmr

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Re: Harpoons and white wailer.
« Reply #1 on: August 26, 2014, 10:17:23 am »
The most effective way to get through this now broken achievement is to pair it with a gattling on the front of a pyra, buff both guns and ram them. + having a sympathetic crew who will time the harpoon shot.

Edit: That also ↓ but with moonshine.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2014, 10:31:28 am by GeoRmr »

Offline Melon McCrabernathy

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Re: Harpoons and white wailer.
« Reply #2 on: August 26, 2014, 10:27:40 am »
You could also use it on the back of a galleon, you just need a little kerosene or moonshine in reverse and your target should die :)

Offline Replaceable

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Re: Harpoons and white wailer.
« Reply #3 on: August 26, 2014, 11:03:30 am »
You could convince a lobby to do all Mobula, all mines except top gun as a harpoon.

There is nothing comparable to the satisfaction of dragging an enemy through a minefield to watch them explode in a flaming ball of instagib- truely wonderful.

Offline JinxedHatesYou

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Re: Harpoons and white wailer.
« Reply #4 on: August 26, 2014, 11:46:13 am »
Those conditions are artificial, the fact is a fact - harpoon is useless in combat.

Offline pandatopia

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Re: Harpoons and white wailer.
« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2014, 11:57:16 am »
Those conditions are artificial, the fact is a fact - harpoon is useless in combat.

Hardly, as all of these conditions can be met fairly well.

In fact a gat harpoon pyra ram is ALMOST actually good enough to be considered a "standard" possible loadout.

A side or back harpoon on a galleon is also not terrible - it sure as hell beats many of the other guns you can place there.

The new harpoon duration makes it hard for the achievement though, but I'm sure you'll get it eventually.

Offline JinxedHatesYou

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Re: Harpoons and white wailer.
« Reply #6 on: August 26, 2014, 12:08:53 pm »
I actually just got it by carefully sitting on enemy junker and pushing him down on the ground.
But, still, as a man who spent last few days on builds with 'poons - those are not great weapons.

Offline pandatopia

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Re: Harpoons and white wailer.
« Reply #7 on: August 26, 2014, 12:12:32 pm »
I actually just got it by carefully sitting on enemy junker and pushing him down on the ground.
But, still, as a man who spent last few days on builds with 'poons - those are not great weapons.

Yes, the reload times are WAY too long - for absolutely no reason. Even if it had 100% uptime (5-6 second reload), it wouldn't be broken imo. It would be AWESOME.

That said I still see more people using them than banshees - though they both fill very minor niches.

Offline Richard LeMoon

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Re: Harpoons and white wailer.
« Reply #8 on: August 26, 2014, 07:24:38 pm »
The fear was that the current force would be abused. So, the reload was lengthened to make the gun practically unusable.

Offline Hoja Lateralus

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Re: Harpoons and white wailer.
« Reply #9 on: August 26, 2014, 08:27:36 pm »
From my experience when someone asks what harpoon does the right answer should be "It takes up a weapon slot". Some even say that harpoon is "achievement gun" because it's used only (or at least mostly?) just to get achievements.

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A side or back harpoon on a galleon is also not terrible - it sure as hell beats many of the other guns you can place there.

Back gun is mostly not used so I can mostly agree but side? Other guns - like what? Gatling on the side is great for short distance (especially combined with hwacha), hades or artemis are also great, even flak or banshee can be 'just okay' there.

Offline Dutch Vanya

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Re: Harpoons and white wailer.
« Reply #10 on: August 26, 2014, 09:21:01 pm »
I'm still waiting for the harpoon reload decrease. it was in the dev app a while ago but seems to have been forgotten about. It would be such an easy fix, with no real risk to balance. except for people actually using the damn thing they already spent the time fixing the physics on.

Offline pandatopia

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Re: Harpoons and white wailer.
« Reply #11 on: August 27, 2014, 09:47:05 am »
Quote
A side or back harpoon on a galleon is also not terrible - it sure as hell beats many of the other guns you can place there.

Back gun is mostly not used so I can mostly agree but side? Other guns - like what? Gatling on the side is great for short distance (especially combined with hwacha), hades or artemis are also great, even flak or banshee can be 'just okay' there.

Gat/hades is nice, certainly, for the hull strip to land the kill with your hwachas or flaks, as it fills the biggest hole of large weapons - no armor strip.

However, do not discount the harpoon. It is not there for killing power per se, but it is useful in the sense that it keeps them from running away.

This has 2 repercussions

1. It is great against balloon kill ships. You will drag them down with you - might not seem like much, but point blank double explosive hwacha WILL strip armor AND disable everything, AND kill them. Even if you just barely manage to clip the hull the yank from the harpoon is the difference between them sitting on you and killing you and you landing enough hwacha hits to disable or force a retreat+reengage. Esp since once your balloon starts going down and you start dropping, many many pilots get overconfident and believe the battle is won. Show them the error of their ways by dragging them into your explosive hwacha. Works also very well with drogue chute and/or a quick insta balloon+hydrogen.

2. It is the difference in range between double explosive hwachas and heavy clip hwachas. It multiplies your guns a ton.

And as an addendum with slow weapons such as heavy flak, it helps vs high speed ships like squid to get that first all-disable hwacha, or slow them down just enough to land the lochnagar flak.

It doesn't add killing power - but it amplifies your guns' killing power. Obviously it is harder to use than a gat/hades, but it certainly isn't a bottom tier gun. And I'd definitely use it over a flak/banshee.

As being able to dictate positioning and/or disable is basically the entire fight vs a galleon, any tool that screws with a pilot's positioning is fantastic on the galleon.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2014, 09:50:22 am by pandatopia »

Offline DJ Tipz N Trix

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Re: Harpoons and white wailer.
« Reply #12 on: August 28, 2014, 12:01:19 am »
I believe that Harpoon has a few good uses, but you need more guns to make it work out.  Ramming alone with harpoons is generally not enough to make it useful.

Offline Lydia Litvyak

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Re: Harpoons and white wailer.
« Reply #13 on: September 02, 2014, 11:29:10 pm »
The most effective way to get through this now broken achievement is to pair it with a gattling on the front of a pyra, buff both guns and ram them. + having a sympathetic crew who will time the harpoon shot.

Actually, this does not work. This is what I did at first and while it's a fun way to kill people, as far as I can tell ram kills do not count towards this achievement. (You should remember that, Geo--I swear you were in at least one of the games where I was doing this!)

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Spire: I am not even going to comment on this one.

Oh, the irony! Spire is by far the easiest ship to do this with, in my opinion. I got three or four harpooned kills in one game using a loch flak spire with two gatlings and a front harpoon.