Final Defining Spire Buff

[Crafeksterty]

I want to adress what has been on a thread in the Dev App forums and bring them here for more feedback and discussion.

Im pretty worn on the discussion but i am also one man that thinks as one mind when trying to solve this puzzle.
And that is one final buff or a combination of buffs that can finalize the image of the Spire to make people want to use it.
We had the discussion about buffing other ships instead of nerfing some ships. This ship is one of them, even though i actually want to look at the squid, one final spire buff should be enough.

Alot of people do have their toughts on it and that is what i want to hear.
I am probably the only one who uses it to its extent. In most cases a brawly fashion because of the over bundance of pyras and goldfishies. The best gun imo is the Lumberjack. But that build only works if the enemy ship is not pyramideon. Not saying pyra is unbalanced, just that people tend to use pyras and i cant use a LJ build. Which then makes me switch things around. But your not ever up against 1 ship, its 2. So one has to think about how one build works against 2 ships. If you take out one ship, can you assist your ally on the other?

And that is a Different Story surrounding the Spire

The Spire today actualy does work if used well, one has to go beyond the 4 star difficulty that it has.
Problem is that there isnt much forgiveness being brought to those who use a spire. It is usually dependant on the player skill and timing along with the ally ship.
We want to make the ship a bit more less dependant from its ally, and make the players actually feel safer or recognizing to the spires ability.
How can we do that?


When the Spire was buffed, it was more of a Berf than a buff. (Berf = Nerf+Buff)
It was a change, the previous spire could point 2 guns infront, and barely a third gun. The fourth was always reserved for a flare or flamethrower.
However the spire had alot of armor, problem is it was downstairs. So only 1 engineer or engineer and gunner was on it rebuilding a pyra like hull.
The baloon was on the empty spot that you see now right behind the helm. Overall the components were easier to manage and keep up but its firepower was very lackluster and from its size, it was weak because it got hit alot. Things changed, the side guns got a 45 degree turn forward and now you can have 4 guns pointing in one direction.
But the baloon got placed downstairs, while the hull placed at the middle of the ship to take away soe attention of being tanky like the goldfish now with goldfish armor.

Funniest thing about this is that the spire was just as strong, just the current one is more flexible so it can problem solve more now.

Here are the different buffs proposed from different sources and myself, make your own also. I wanna discuss on this.

Move the hull to where the baloon used to be

Place the hull on the empty spot up by the helm!
This gives quick access for the engineer and pilot that are upstairs and repair the hull.

My Comment
This is both Good and Bad

Good because it goes for atleast a main engineer and a pilot helping out on the hull with an immidiate repair.
Bad because it now takes away the gunners and second engineers ability to help on the hull.
Current hull is pretty balanced in terms of getting to it and over all repairs. Second engineer can usually run around the ship, taking laps from baloon to main gun to hull then jump down again. While an immidiate path upwards is the ladder. While the new one allows for the pilot and main engineer to do a quick repair but next to no reason for other players to come up as well.
The spire can be extremely tanky versus some ships if all come to repair on the hull, rebuilding and repairing it. This buff will make the hull repairing easier, but also linear. Also enforcing for an engineer pilot.

What i like about this is that is gives less tought on the hull so the players can focus more on other things since it is so easy to grab.

Double its acceleration

This is pure stat upgrade
The spire is the slowest ship in the game, this buff gives it some control on his allready slow speed.

My Comment
Basicaly make better use of the spires body. The spire in general should be able to position and move around. Its not fast, but atleast it should be able to move when it has to move.
Double acceleration or more can lead to better positioning. Playing with range better, and backpaddling better. Along with kyrosine or moonshine, it can lead to some mindgamey elements where if the spire will go back or forwards to avoid a ram. Not only this, with double acceleration, the spire can more easily jump into cover quicker.

Even today, you can dodge lumber/Hades shots just by showing off ones side. With double acceleration would make for a more apparent element on the spire.
Much like how the mobula can dodge vertically. The spire should dodge horizontaly.

I also want to stress the fact it would play with range better, on its arming time, dodging shots and do suprising turns for a thin slow ship.

I really support this idea, but it doesnt solve most problems on the spire. This buff is a good one to combine with some other buff.

More armor

Very simple
up to 500 or 550 or 600 armor instead of its 400.

My comment
But im very much against this idea. The armor that each ship have is not that far from eachother, if the armor goes up it will meet up with the pyra mideon. Buffed armor will lead to higher or that of a mobula or pyramideon. Making a very glass cannony unbuffed pyramideon.

For example, (current spire armor)400 + 30% is 520.  500 + 30% is 650(Pyramideon armor). 550 + 30% is 715 armor (Mobula armor i think, 100 less than junker armor)
So allready its becoming tanky. If you are thinking about all ships being buffed in comparison, it will still give the spire an advantage. It would then be a pyra with 4 guns. versus a buffed pyra with 2 guns. So it is mostly for non-competetive balance. Competetively its not balanced. Uncompetetively, its balanced. But if both dont agree, then its not a good choice.

But remember, that is my oppinion, you can say otherwise.

Taking out unnecessary spire bits (Hitbox discussion)

Would help alot in unoticable ways.

My comment
Some of the more arguments fly torwards the pointy bit of the spire being unnecessary and should be removed. But then you are taking away the personality of the ship.
Some arguments go torwards the baloon ram of the spire being problematic. There is also the many parts of the spire being both hull and baloon. Where the bit on top of the spire is acctualy Hull.

I think the more smaller bits is a better thing to experiment torwards than the actual huge bits.

Ide propose an odd excuse for keeping the pointy bit.
If we can add a ladder that goes even further down from the platform where the baloon is now to a 5th gun that points backwards.
Not only are you using more of the model of the spire, you are giving a defencive backwards gun. This is, highly controversial.

Better turning

Very simple
Better/faster turning

My comment
One of the things that has always been said about the spire is that it can turn fast. This is not true. The junker, squid, goldfish turn quicker. While Pyras or mobulas turn almost just as quick. But the turnrate is enough for getting the guns on target, but the turning does not justify the description of the spire to "Shield its engines".

Nothing wrong about the turning, but it is an option for the spire. Its just a different kind of option.

Better verticality

Make the spire be able to go up and down faster

My comment
The argument for this is to better use its verticality so to better handle its body.
The spire is second best at vertical meneuverability. Pretty much the junker just that the spire has more acceleration to it which is the cause for verticality.
Another option which doesnt really need to be done since it allready is good at verticality. The body is the buff focusing on.

Mostly the argument comes from helping the spire dodge rams better. Its true and it can help.

More Hull Health

Give it More Hull Health

My Comment
This kinda contrevises (if its a word) the fact that the spire is glasscannon, but with such an easy to hit hull it should still be able to stay up there with its guns. Outgunning a ship with health sacrifice.

Lets assume current hull health is that of wiki "650".

If we can raise that to 1000, The spire will have an obvious playstyle of formating crew.
For example.

Heavy hull health makes the spires gunners actually use the guns more than repairing the hull,
But if the reverse its focus to repairs, suddenly you have a very tanky but fully disabled ship.
It also helps against terrain, the spire is instagibbed by terrain mostly because of its weird body. This health can forgive that.
I actually support this idea as it compliments both competetive and uncompetetive playtype.

Competetively, there is an aware that the spire can be easily brought down, with this update, one needs extra killing power, or more accurate killing power to hit. The health also gives the spire  a chance to back out into cover. It also finaly makes the spire able to tank something in a sniper match. In risky formats, it will always outgun if pointed at and will always loose health, it just wont trade as much kills. But still killed if suprised.

Uncompetetively, the ship will forgive most skill levels on the spire because it gets a second chance of being tanky enough. The spire is slow and unmoving so in most cases the spire is still able to get hit and thus still die fairly quick. Goldfishes have 1100 and even they can die quick. With the spires hitbox and body, it can still die quick but with a bit more carefull gameplay, the health will forgive most trades or mistakes. Making the difficulty less of a 4 star, and into an actual 3 star.

Tell me, do you have anything in mind?
I want to finalize the spire so i dont have to think about disabilities of the ship.
Even though the focus should fly on the squid, i believe just one more adjustment to the spire that isnt grand that can help the players flying the spire a more balanced experience.'

Also take a look at this https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,4422.0.html

[SirNotlag]

I would like to see more hull health the most for the same reasons you feel its a good idea, makes the ship a little more forgiving and actually able to defend itself against a charging pyrmadon or something.

I also think the fast acceleration would be nice but for spire players but frustrating for those fighting against it as it would increase its ability to back peddle and tear you apart with 3 guns. Then again I feel that's also easily countered by using ranged weapons or getting the jump on the spire so that buff would get my second vote.

Combining these two buffs would certainly make the spire more effective and still make it unique but that could get out of hand so it might be best to buff one thing at a time and see how it works out.

[Sprayer]

I'd like some kind of damage multiplicator when the spire rams enemies by dropping down on them. Dagger style.

[Crafeksterty]

Hah! Problem is there is no real ease of use for it to be viable even for a skill level to utilise it.

Its like in a pyramideon you can clearly see where to ram, on a mobula you can fully see your above level.

Nothing much on the spire that gives it the opportunity to stab people easily even by design

[Canon Whitecandle]

I firmly disagree with the vertical buff, on the grounds that the Mobula and Spire are exact opposites and giving the Spire quick vertical movement messes with that balance between the two.  Furthermore, I've never had a problem juking a charge with hydrogen in any ship, let alone a Spire. so the buff would seem unnecessary anyways.

[Crafeksterty]

But there are other buffs to choose from, i dont agree with vertical buff either, its an option.
Do you have any other toughts?

Im leaning for what SirNotLag said, acceleration + more hull health.

[HamsterIV]

Regarding the suggestion to move the hull to the void where the old balloon was:
The spire and mobula occupy a similar place in the game, forward facing tri/quod fecta ships with very difficult engineering layouts. Moving the hull to the old balloon spot would make the ship much easier to engineer on and thus more powerful. A pilot and engineer could double team the hull while the downstairs engineer and gunner could still shoot. This would make the spire incredibly powerful in a brawl.

For better or worse I think the spire's hull should stay where it is, if just to force the crew to make a meaningful decision on whether to repair or keep shooting.

That said Muse needs to stick something in that void so the side gungineer doesn't get caught in it as they run to the hull. I would like them to take out the railing or put a cylindrical pipe there.

[sparklerfish]

That said Muse needs to stick something in that void so the side gungineer doesn't get caught in it as they run to the hull. I would like them to take out the railing or put a cylindrical pipe there.

yes can we please?

[PixelatedVolume]

What would be amazing--no idea how it would be implemented--but the greatest thing for a spire in my opinion would be having it strafe from side to side with engines that point to the left maybe?  Just an idea.

[pandatopia]

The spire loses to other sniping ships, oddly enough (even to other spire mirror matches too), because it is by far the easiest ship to be hit by LB/flak and is the flimsiest, because it dies instantly to merc + heavy flak...kinda lame. Mobula does too, but it is infinitely harder to hit the mobula hull with merc, plus it has great dodging ability.

I am pretty okay with its armor/hull amount, but I feel the hull is way too far back. Positioning it near the pilot would be awesome.

I think it could stand to be 20% thinner and 20% less tall. Would also be slightly easier to access.

The main problem I think is its mobility. Its acceleration and turning need to be much, much higher. Even if it matched squid acceleration I think that would be a good spot. Being a glass cannon is okay, but it cannot be as hard to maneuver as a galleon almost. If ANYTHING ever looks at it it immediately dies, even from outside brawling range. It cannot outrun anything, it cannot dodge anything, it cannot turn to get its guns fast enough, and it is so tall that ascending/descending doesn't even do anything! It needs to have a fighting chance with good piloting. As it is currently noone even bothers rebuilding the hull because if you're not shooting you're dead already.

[Crafeksterty]

All of the things is true that you said panda, but with it in mind you can play around it. Problem is then you outweigh over the things that is Advantagous.
(By that i mean you cannot do what the spire is meant to do if the limits of the spire deny the spire of that)

But there is a few flexabilities.

For example, a spire can really tank like crazy if 3 or 4 people are on the hull. Trust me, it can get pretty tanky.
Having the hull up to the pilot will make the ship easier to manage in terms of armor, and the rebuild is going to be generally quicker, but it cannot be any quicker than that.
So it is a good fix, the issue only lies in the flexability and play style. Moment the armor goes down, it implies to quickly jump on the rebuild.
While what i would like more is Hull health which does the same job of being a bit more tanky, just it encourages to keep shooting as you will survive and be forgiven for a hull down.

Another thing to help the ship is hitbox fixing, like the small bits on the spire also resulting as a hull hit than a baloon hit. Ships that rise up from below on the spire can get the shots in before the spire because of its big pointy bit. Why not give it ram priority? The pointy bit can have ram priority much like the Pyra so the spire will loose much less damage when getting uppercutted or shot at on the ram. That way, we satisfy chute venters and the disadvantage of having a long pointy bit + hitting below objects constantly.

[macmacnick]

technically, the junker is slower than the spire, but the spire tends to accelerate more slowly, therefore it doesn't reach top speed very quickly.

[Crafeksterty]

technically, the junker is slower than the spire, but the spire tends to accelerate more slowly, therefore it doesn't reach top speed very quickly.

By how much? I thought they were the same speed just that the spire is slower by just an unoticable ammount.

[macmacnick]

...well, just checked the wiki's numbers, and it's about equal. Never mind then.

[Crafeksterty]

This is incredibly interresting.
Read this whole thread
https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,4697.0.html


The reason why, lets say the pyra seems to be so good is because people play it right?
Well there are lots of other factors going for it.

Same thing can be said for the mobula.


The pyra and the Mobula is probably the only ships that have a defining aspect. Mobula can utilise its verticality and line of guns. Making for a very dodgy ship that can utilise the map very well.
The pyra in the other hand has an easy to aim and position guns. That doesnt make the meta better though.
Its the ram, the defining aspect is the ram that shields the baloon and some damage and functions as a third source of damage.

The Junker being hard to hit AND tanky. While the goldfish being a simple but durable ship that delivers a heavy gun at almost the speed of the squid, usualy taken as the most standardized ship.

Now give the other ships their own defining aspect. There really almost is none.
Galleon, spire, and squid only asist to deliver their guns. Even the squids speed doesnt beat the speed of bullets.

The galleon and Spire from their position only turn to give the guns on the enemy.
While the squid doesnt have enough guns nor the dodgy aspect of what it should have to escape enemy guns.


I want to say and make the Galleon even TANKIER so it has a favourable aspect and gameplay where they are all about existing.
Or give the squid Mobula Power, so that not only is it quick, turning fast... it can also have a second option of escape wich is the verticality.
Then we have the spire which is incredibly difficult to further enhance its aspect.

Again, i really want to emphasise the buff of Hull health. Its the only one that emphasises the use of guns more than repairing.
Or a new option.

Turn the side guns forward

And give the catwalks for those guns a 90 degree turn just so that the guns make sense for aiming forward
Or one of the side guns.

My comment
Another controversial subject because of "turn guns moar".

What this does is make the spire really good at utilising weapons. Keep everything the same just turn the side guns forward. That way we can have devestating combinations that can kill in matter of seconds. Which is a very good question if the spire should have. Because this spire can allready deal a fair sum of damage. But will turning the guns even more forward make people utilise its aspect of being a glass cannon to heck? If all guns turn forward, you can have 3 mercuries and a heavyflak ready to kill anything it sees. Or if one of the guns get the buff, 2 mercuries and an artemis.

How about 2 hades, light flak and a lumberjack :I

2 hades, 1 mortar and hwacha.

It becomes pretty mindless and inflexible. But it shows an aspect that makes the spire feared.
Lets just tune it down to one of the side guns getting a forward buff.

2 mercuries, 1 artemis and heavy flak
2 hades, minelauncher and heavy flak (You can almost do this allready)
2 Mine launchers, twin carronade and an artemis.
2 Hades, LJ and mercury.

Less mindless but still mindless.

Just a question of do we want the spire to have the more CANNON in the name of GlassCannon?
(I just dont agree with this buff but a given tought)

Also here is another one if you missed my suggestion

Make the pointy bit of the spire same priority as a Ram

Make the spires spear behave like the pyras Ram

That way some damage that hits the "ram" does less damage, and it forgives alot of terrain damage.
This also gives an opportunity for some creative folk to chute vent onto ships.

This is a good minor buff, minor because it forgives more mistakes and unfairness to the spires ability.
It is difficult knowing when you hit something below you, this buff will forgive the damage.
A ship rising at the spire will get the upper hand because they fire the pointy bit to begin with.
This buff forgives that.
It also gives the spire an opportunity to do something unnreliably crazy for much less punish.