character progression needed

[Pagnasty]

Great game .. not so much so worried about balance .. but need a bit more Progression to keep people playing more .. when you build up a character it makes you feel if you have invested into it more then just " owww look at the number beside my name" ..  Use the model that " KILLING FLOOR " put down to make people still want to play Years later ofter if was released because the progression was smooth and sexy. .. just a bit of info me and my homies was talking about that would make this the top of our game list  for sure !

[GeoRmr]

You unlock cosmetic items that you can't buy in the store at levels 5 10 and 15 in each class )

[Pagnasty]

Dont think your Picking up what im putting down ...... ya a eye patch and a hat and a wodden leg are great and all but .........
... This is the convo that sparked my train of thought ..........................



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[9:28:37 AM] TYRONE_BIGGUMZ: not even the fighting games any good this year .. they offer a little excitement ... whatever is not taken over by the MOBAs
[9:29:23 AM] m3chladon: Was funny EA showed off their Dawngate moba it got like no applause and no one asked about it at all in the wrap up interviews
[9:29:27 AM] m3chladon: literally no one cares
[9:29:41 AM] TYRONE_BIGGUMZ: sick of playing smite already because of the REQUIRED 45 minutes of free time ya need
[9:29:53 AM] m3chladon: yeah honestly i can't deal with that stuff anymore
[9:30:00 AM] m3chladon: ill just stick to guns of icarus
[9:30:06 AM] m3chladon: one of the few pvp games i like atm
[9:30:32 AM] TYRONE_BIGGUMZ: Guns is NICE .. just needs a little more character building like Killing Floor has
[9:30:43 AM] m3chladon: yeah
[9:30:54 AM] TYRONE_BIGGUMZ: just a tad bit more .. so close to being perfect
[9:31:31 AM] TYRONE_BIGGUMZ: maybe ill write them a post to the devs and see if they still interested in adding content to that game
[9:31:41 AM] TYRONE_BIGGUMZ: of if they consider it a finished perfect product
[9:37:14 AM] TYRONE_BIGGUMZ: ok man well im off to the lab in a few ill catch ya later on man
[9:37:38 AM] m3chladon: cya
TYRONE_BIGGUMZ: https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/board,23.0.html
TYRONE_BIGGUMZ: my guns of Ick post
m3chladon: meh idk about all that i really dont like grinding needlessly tbh
m3chladon: i know you feel more attached but its just an arena pvp game
TYRONE_BIGGUMZ: ya arena pvp but if ya dont want to grind you play casual .. you want to grind you get 15% more repair .. or whatever
TYRONE_BIGGUMZ: you basicly get what the buff hammer gives you already without the need of a buff hammer once your a master of your skill

[GeoRmr]

Ah, from,what I've gathered the devs are against this style of gameplay, they want everyone from noobs to vets on an even playing field. It would be kinda cool though, wouldn't be surprised if they add that sort of progression to the upcomming coop mode )

[AscendantWyvern]

I'd like seeing skill progression in the campaign mode, where PvE and Co-op are the focus.

In a PVP setting, skill progression just winds up being a deterrent for newer players, and encourages only building teams with high levels. As it currently stands, the only thing that physically progresses in GoI is player skill and communication, which is probably a very good place to be if you ask me.

[Pagnasty]

not if you just give vets the buffs from a buff hammer .. somthing simple that can be counterd by non vets useing a buff hammer .. just MINOR change is all im talking about not like i said add FRIGGIN LAZERS !

[JaegerDelta]

not if you just give vets the buffs from a buff hammer .. somthing simple that can be counterd by non vets useing a buff hammer .. just MINOR change is all im talking about not like i said add FRIGGIN LAZERS !

but that isnt really simple.  buffing players completely removes the point of limiting loadout options for classes.  say you have a vet gunner; now that she/he no longer needs a buff on their gun an engineer is freed up to focus on repairs or put in even more extra damage right away.  in a game with a small playerbase character progression in such a way only alienates newcomers.

that style works in killing floor because you are not fighting other players.

[Pagnasty]

Or a way to encourage new players to stick with the game to become better ... im a new player and i see if i play for 20 weeks it will be the same as if i play for 1 week .. other then my new eye patch ... but some kind of beneifit like 1% damage per level on a gunner sould encourage me to level ... plus whats teh reason for haveing the 1-3 game and the open to any lvl games if no diffrence in levels .. ? .. some time things can be to balanced ... but if you like your game the way it is good on ya .. who am i to come in here with new fangled ideas and input and voice them ... hope your game goes strong for a long time its a fun game .. just dont want to see it stagnate with the same 20 people flying the same 3 ships all year long ..  ( If you want everyone to be even every fight you should only have 1 ship with 1 type of gun also .. ) .........................

[JaegerDelta]

Or a way to encourage new players to stick with the game to become better ... im a new player and i see if i play for 20 weeks it will be the same as if i play for 1 week .. other then my new eye patch ... but some kind of beneifit like 1% damage per level on a gunner sould encourage me to level ... plus whats teh reason for haveing the 1-3 game and the open to any lvl games if no diffrence in levels .. ? .. some time things can be to balanced ... but if you like your game the way it is good on ya .. who am i to come in here with new fangled ideas and input and voice them ... hope your game goes strong for a long time its a fun game .. just dont want to see it stagnate with the same 20 people flying the same 3 ships all year long ..  ( If you want everyone to be even every fight you should only have 1 ship with 1 type of gun also .. ) .........................

i think you are missing the point.  this game is a pvp co-op which differs greatly from both straight co-op and straight pvp. 

in straight pvp, such as tf2, cod, battlefield, etc. a "progression" system is inplace to keep people playing the game and unlocking "better" weapons, but this is in reality just a device used by this type of game to keep you playing (and there for more inclined to spend more money) as no matter the weapon, any one player can be killed by any other player at any given time. the primary unit of interaction is the player, and those units are equal. (when i say equal i mean from a game mechanic stand point not equal aptitude at the game)

in striaght co-op a progression system is there again to facilitate your continued playing (and spending) but the system is arbitrary and largely of no consequence  because you are not in conflict with human opponents, sure it makes later content of the game easier, but that content is only harder so there can be a progression system that can latch on to your brain.  the player is again the primary interaction with the game mechanics and and is again equal with all other players, except in one aspect.  time spent playing. but as the players are not in conflict with one another and there is a scaling difficulty level, it makes no difference toward unit equality.

in a co-op pvp game, such as this, many of these ideas are turned around and some completely obiliterated.  the player is no longer the primary unit in the game, the primary unit is the ship.  the player, meanwhile, is a sub-unit, a fraction of the entity that is actually interacting with the game mechanics.  the object actually in conflict.

so you take our 4 person crews for 1 ship. the ship is the object actually in the action, making it the primary unit of interaction with the game mechanics. that means each player is 1/4th of a unit. and having access to all the same equipment and choices as every other 1/4th unit of the game, 4 of them can come together and make 1 whole unit that is exactly as equal, has had the same choices affecting the outcome, as any other 1 whole unit.

now if you start buffing players, i.e. through a conventional progresson system. those 1/4's are no longer equal and there for they could come together to make a whole unit that is greater than another whole unit, i.e. has a bias towards winning. a real, actual, game mechanically induced bias not just greater experience with the game. and that is a problem.

[Imagine]

Or a way to encourage new players to stick with the game to become better ... im a new player and i see if i play for 20 weeks it will be the same as if i play for 1 week .. other then my new eye patch ... but some kind of beneifit like 1% damage per level on a gunner sould encourage me to level ... plus whats teh reason for haveing the 1-3 game and the open to any lvl games if no diffrence in levels .. ? .. some time things can be to balanced ... but if you like your game the way it is good on ya .. who am i to come in here with new fangled ideas and input and voice them ... hope your game goes strong for a long time its a fun game .. just dont want to see it stagnate with the same 20 people flying the same 3 ships all year long ..  ( If you want everyone to be even every fight you should only have 1 ship with 1 type of gun also .. ) .........................

Novice games are there for you to learn the basics, but they're not forced, you can get into regular lobbies at any time. Novice games just don't let higher levels in.

You don't need to grind levels, you can get to lvl 5 or so pretty easily without doing anything special other than just playing the game. I personally have barely gone out of my way to get achievements done, and I'm sitting at 6/10/6.

Giving any sort of bonus passives to higher levels throws off the balance of the game greatly, one of the best things about the game is the only defining difference between players is experience and skill, which means that even though someone is lvl 15 they can still be beaten by a lvl 1 if that lvl 1 (and crew) knows what they're doing.

Anyways, if you're so dead set on character progression, Co-op mode will feature something of that sort.

[HamsterIV]

Mad props to JaegerDelta for breaking down how GOI differs from other games with a progression system.

I just want to add that stacked lobbies are already a problem in this game. High level players gravitate to each other just so they don't have to put up with a new guy who they don't think can operate at the same level as them. Imagine if it were impossible due to the character progression for a new player to operate at the same level as a veteran player.

Hypothetical lobby chat:
"Get off my ship new guy. I am running a build that requires locknagar ammo. I see by your level you haven't even unlocked charged yet. Come back when you have put in your time at the kiddie pool like the rest of us."

[vyew]

I don't think any kind of progression can happen in GoIO PvP for 2 main reasons:

1) There aren't actually that many gameplay items to unlock. 16 guns (minimum gatling/mortar default, so 14), 8 ammos, 7 ships (1 needs to be unlocked by default so 6), 5 engineering tools (Wrench+Fire Extinguisher need to be default items minimum, so 3), 8 piloting tools, 2 spotting tools for a total of 41 gameplay unlockables. This is nothing compared to e.g. MW3, ME3 MP, BLOPS2 etc.

2) Veteran players would be OP because they can stack their passive abilities (unlocked through progression) with tools/ammos. In your example (+15% passive gun damage buff), noob players cannot counter veterans. Veterans would stack +15% passive with +15% buff hammer for +30% damage, plus (for example) 1.3x Charged Rounds. Noob players with just +15% buff hammer (assuming they unlocked it) would have no chance.

Also, noobs would be easily crushed because they have nothing unlocked yet. This would be worse than all other PvP games with progression, because even a noob player has the tools to beat a veteran player, which wouldn't happen in GoIO because of the item balancing if everything had to be unlocked.

I'm also interested why you think a perfectly balanced game can only have 1 gun, 1 ship etc. You can have a range of different gun ships with different strengths and weaknesses. As long as the playstyles are balanced against each other, and everyone has equal access to the same stuff (which would not happen with character progression for GoIO) it's fine. If you mean like, e.g. Halo where everyone starts with BR+Magnum+2x Frag, there is still the matter of power weapons and power positions so it is definitely not just 1 gun for everyone.

tl;dr there is progression in GoIO, it's called skill and you gain skill by gaining experience, by playing lots of matches. Boring? Yeah sure of course, but it means that the game (with matchmaking active, which it isn't right now) will always be fair. I got tired of MW3 because if one team had more veterans, they would chain UAV/Care Package/Predator/Reapers/AC130/EMP/Stealth Bomber, no fun for the other team after ~8 minutes.

[Mezhu]

There could be ways to make an account or character feel more personal (or the game more 'addictive') by having a broader cosmetic system. Item descriptions, tradable items, rarity tiers, unique items unlocked only via very specific challenges or events etc would satisfy those that feel the game's not giving them reason enough to continue playing, yet without breaking game balance.

I too sometimes feel like I'm playing in vain, as the game gets extremely repetitive after a point, casual games tend to be easy and uninteresting and there's no sense of goal. Farming achievements keeps me playing but I keep wondering 'then what?'. With my hopes of matchmaking solving the issue by implementing a ladder or leaderboard of sorts now gone, I see a revamp of cosmetics as the only solution. Yes, I know co-op is coming out soon and stuff but that's going to also get stale after a point.

And, with the game's competitive potential not being used, a ranking system not present, no cosmetic progression and a total of ~10 unique maps I think it's no wonder why the game's only popular during steam sales.

[SyndicatedINC]

JaegerDelta hit the proverbial nail on the head here:

...the player is no longer the primary unit in the game, the primary unit is the ship.  the player, meanwhile, is a sub-unit, a fraction of the entity that is actually interacting with the game mechanics.  the object actually in conflict.

so you take our 4 person crews for 1 ship. the ship is the object actually in the action, making it the primary unit of interaction with the game mechanics. that means each player is 1/4th of a unit. and having access to all the same equipment and choices as every other 1/4th unit of the game, 4 of them can come together and make 1 whole unit that is exactly as equal, has had the same choices affecting the outcome, as any other 1 whole unit.

now if you start buffing players, i.e. through a conventional progresson system. those 1/4's are no longer equal and there for they could come together to make a whole unit that is greater than another whole unit, i.e. has a bias towards winning. a real, actual, game mechanically induced bias not just greater experience with the game. and that is a problem.

Although did anyone else read this and immediately think "Damn, now I want a wooden peg leg cosmetic"? 

Dont think your Picking up what im putting down ...... ya a eye patch and a hat and a wodden leg are great and all but .........