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Design Paradigm, Game balance, and Gunner vs Engineer.
awkm:
Just want to paint a clear picture of how things will shake down since not everyone has been up to date with this thread since the beginning.
Hoja Lateralus:
--- Quote from: Richard LeMoon on June 17, 2014, 04:39:40 pm ---So, while pondering something, another something occurred to me that might make gunners a bit more desirable. What if simply being on a gun made it reload faster? Not a class specific passive. Just if anyone is on a gun, it reloads faster. Pilots and engineers have other things to do while guns are loading. Gunners, not so much. Even a buff gungineer gets off the gun to keep it buffed. This would be more of a hotseat buff. If your ship is doing well with no repairs to be made, all guns would load a bit faster just by keeping someone in the seat.
--- End quote ---
Firstly this.
Secondly - Messing with the slot numbers / equipment will not do unfortunately. Even if we give gunner some buff-item it's always availible for the engineer. As awkm said the deal is to give the gunner better and more situational ammo since it's the easiest to implement and probably the best solution considering ballance of the whole game.
The turret ammo seems like a really good idea - well used in specific situations can be extremely useful. I have two another ideas:
Flash Ammo/Mark Ammo - I don't remember the real name - the ammo that leaves quite visible marks in the air when flying and therefore helping both sides to see where they are. The idea is that on hit this ammo makes both ships marked for each other. Sometimes, especially on Battle of the Dunes we see more or less where the ship is but the dust cloud makes it impossible to mark it. Also very useful when enemy uses tar (meaning they are running away and our ship being marked don't do much of a difference).
Tar Ammo / Smoke Ammo - The ammo that instead of doing damage makes small clouds of tar or tar-alike smoke where they hit, lessening the enemy crew's visibility. This would make the squids more usable for harass and encourage the "default" 1 pilot 2 engineers 1 gunner build on them.
MacBen:
How about removing normal ammo or allow people to have 2 active at the same time ?
There is only one helmet, and its a good thing to bring a dedicated pilot with pilotingtools.
With just one of them you are screwed in many situations where you need one of the others.
There is only one baloon/hull that is damaged/broken/burning and its a good thing to bring a dedicated engineer.
With just one repair tool you are screwed in many situations where you need one of the others.
There are 3-6 Guns on your ship and a fat chance that the right gun for every range/damagetype is ready to fire.
They do perfectly fine with normal ammo.And the other ammo's purpose is to squeeze out up to 10% more damage or
make them opperate out of their comfort zone (reduced arming distance,reduced weapons spread,less projectile drop )
because the proper gun for that situation was broken (+1 engi) or on fire (+1 engi) or already taken by another player.
With just one ammo type you ..... will have to use the normal ammo for half the guns on the ship? or run between guns to be flexible? ::)
Add the fakt that chem spray (+1 engi) and the buffhammer (+1 engi) stack with ammo buffs ,
but different ammotypes that fill a similar role don't stack with each other;
and it gets hard to see a justification for a dedicated Gunner.
Half the things his addidional ammo does can be done better by additional engineer tools, and the rest has marginal or very situational impact.
But with 2 ammotypes stacking I can see them on eye level with the engineer tools and a whole new level of flexibility/more ship loadouts that need an gunner.
It will require some fine tuning , but each ammo already comes with a drawback that works as a adjusting screw to give them the edge without making them overpowered.
-Mad Maverick-:
I had an idea today and i know its very weird and it may not work coding wise but i think it would make the gunner WAY more valuable.
First, we make the buff hammer a gunner tool (i know i know you dont like it AWKM but hear me out...) making the buff a gunner tool does not remove it from the list of options before an engineer because obviously he can take the buff hammer as his 1 gunner tool
Second, we remove normal ammo as default, i.e. if you select no ammo type at all (taking standard ammo is one of those ammo types to choose from) you can not load a gun. If a gun is already loaded, fire away but with no ammo on your person you are unable to reload
doing this will allow a gunner to (if he chooses) select two different ammo types, a buff hammer AND a repair tool. this will make the gunner instantly viable. this change will also make for a much more interesting "engineer game" for dedicated engineers who does no plan on firing any weapons. because now they have a full repair kit AND components to buff!
with most ships now being able to buff engines they will fly faster and more nimbly creating bit more fun for the pilots, the gunner class will be viable on many more builds, and you will barely have to do any re-coding (hopefully)!
Milevan Faent:
--- Quote from: -Mad Maverick- on August 06, 2014, 11:47:41 pm ---I had an idea today and i know its very weird and it may not work coding wise but i think it would make the gunner WAY more valuable.
First, we make the buff hammer a gunner tool (i know i know you dont like it AWKM but hear me out...) making the buff a gunner tool does not remove it from the list of options before an engineer because obviously he can take the buff hammer as his 1 gunner tool
Second, we remove normal ammo as default, i.e. if you select no ammo type at all (taking standard ammo is one of those ammo types to choose from) you can not load a gun. If a gun is already loaded, fire away but with no ammo on your person you are unable to reload
doing this will allow a gunner to (if he chooses) select two different ammo types, a buff hammer AND a repair tool. this will make the gunner instantly viable. this change will also make for a much more interesting "engineer game" for dedicated engineers who does no plan on firing any weapons. because now they have a full repair kit AND components to buff!
with most ships now being able to buff engines they will fly faster and more nimbly creating bit more fun for the pilots, the gunner class will be viable on many more builds, and you will barely have to do any re-coding (hopefully)!
--- End quote ---
All these ideas have been suggested before and rejected for one reason or another.
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