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Call for Gunner Ammo Ideas

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GeoRmr:

--- Quote from: Crafeksterty on May 22, 2014, 09:22:17 am ---Woooow, hold up. Introduce faster reload with buffkit, then you will want gunengineers everywhere! Ok maybe just one.

But yeah, i see your point. But, i dont think  that does the trick. We want gunners to be utilised for their gunnery, not make engineers weaker so that we maybe get a gunner.
Im, very much burned out on ideas. I cant possibly contribute with forum text any more.

Other than max HP ammo types would still be cool. I mean barricade + max health to heatsink would be super hot.
Along with maybe Tinker ammo, and Ammo crank. Throw in Proximity and injection, and weve got combinations that may want players have gunner on their ship.
But thats just me though.

--- End quote ---

Why would you want a gunner on the ship to use proximity or injection, while you can have an engineer with proximity or injection + a buffhammer or better repair tools to rebuild their broken gun? The alleged 'problem' is still not being adressed.


--- Quote --- Everyone knows that Gunners may not be the most popular role to play on your ship.  Many think that running Engineers is the most beneficial due to the assortment of Repair/Buff equipment Engineers can carry.  It's time to make Gunners more desirable and the easiest, fastest, and arguably best way to do it is through new Gunner Ammo.
--- End quote ---

Any additional ammo you add to the game can still be taken by engineers, and adding more variety will not change that fact. Engineers can still perform the other Repair/Buff tasks that gunners cannot do effectively, while the gunners advantage is far more niche. An engineer can use 50% of the 'gunner' benefit (2 ammo types out of a possible 4), while a gunner can only use only 33.3% of the 'engineer' benefit (1 repair tool out of a possible 3). It is also worth noting that every single engineer tool can be used to benefit each component on the ship (except for using a buff hammer on a flame-thrower, which is arguably neutral), where currently different ammunition choices have the possibility of being detrimental to particular weapons.

Unless there is a solid non-replicable advantage given to a gunner shooting a gun (one which requires 2 gunnery items to be used simultaneously) the engineer will remain the favoured class. By all means add these new ammo types (THEY'RE AWESOME!) but don't be deluded into thinking that it is, in any way, a solution.

Dirius:
Instead of special amo I think it would make the gunner more viable to give them better abilities. For example, make the gunner able to aim weapons faster by maybe 20%

Another idea I've been thinking about is the ability to 'overclock' a gun. Switch it into a mode where the weapon fires and reloads 50% faster, but takes damage for each shot

For example a very slow weapon being boosted would break after only 6 or so shots, while a very fast one would last longer.

redria:

--- Quote from: GeoRmr on May 22, 2014, 12:03:15 pm ---Any additional ammo you add to the game can still be taken by engineers adding more does not change that fact, while engineers can still perform the other Repair/Buff tasks that gunners cannot do effectively.

--- End quote ---
A lot of this too.

New ammo types that damage the gun/ship only promote engineers because, especially with heavy disable right now, gun damage is a problem best solved by engineers.

For an ammo type to actually promote gunners, it would need to be inherently productive for your ship and your team, but would need to not be inherently powerful.
New ammos don't need to deal massive damage. The guns themselves already deal good damage, and your engineer is going to take those ammos that complement this.
New ammos need to reduce the damage of the weapon and provide other opportunities to benefit your ship and team.

Consider, you would (probably) not make your engineer take an ammo that will reduce your damage output since that will be their only option. However, a gunner can still take the damage ammos along with the niche ammo types that actually reduce your damage output.

The strength of the gunner is their versatility and ability to be useful at different ranges and in different situations. Right now the ammo types focus mostly around your damage output and range capabilities, with the exception of heatsink. I think new ammo types need to be types that you would not want your engineer to take in any situation. Types that are inherently not good if your choices are that ammo and normal. But they should be capable of being used very effectively if you have a gunner who can load that ammo in for a single clip to provide you with some form of advantage before switching back to more conventional ammo types.

Examples I've seen in this thread being Anti-gravity rounds, tracer rounds, and my own impact ammo.
Anti-grav would allow shots to fall upwards instead of down, making mortar crazy interesting, but not an ammo you would take with your engineer since there are better ammo types for a player who is limited to normal +1.
Tracer rounds would have to deal next-to-no damage while giving a percent chance to "spot" a ship if that ship is hit. Engineers taking it would sacrifice their damage output, but a gunner would still have 2 other ammos to take damage ammo types.
Impact ammo would allow each gun to deliver impact damage instead of its normal damage type. The damage would be severely reduced to where an engineer with a mallet could maintain anything being focused, but the impact would be distinct and noticeable. Engineers would again be weakened by taking it, but a gunner could easily fit it in for interesting situations/tactics.

Another idea that is probably infeasible and may not be desired would be healer rounds, which deal 0 damage to enemies, and 50% damage as a repair to friendlies. A close range ship could then support a long range ally by assisting with repairs while the long range ally snipes. But your gungineer taking this would immediately nerf your ability to fight, making it mostly only desirable for gunners.

In essence, if ammo types are the immediate band-aid to the problem, then we need to come up with ammo types that a pilot would love to have available on their ship, but that would not be beneficial as a singular ammo for a player.

TL;DR: Think of ammo types focused around utility, not damage - damage ammos will be taken by engineers, while utility ammos are taken by gunners.

GeoRmr:
Cool, but that would be horrendously immersion breaking red! (almost as much as injection clip)  :P

My only concern is that the utility ammo is not as desirable as having a choice of three from the already existing ammo types that we have.

Mysterious Medic:
Alright so, I've thought about this a bit and I have to agree with geo. Ammo types really won't fix the balance of the classes. Even utility ammos I feel could be used with an engi. No, I think the permanent solution is passive gunner tools. The reason buffed guns are so great is because the buff stacks on top of whatever other ammo you're using- so a buff ammo is pointless. I'm thinking a passive buff gunner tool will fix this. It will take up a gunnery tool slot, and it will make whatever gun you go on have that passive buff for whenever you're shooting it. If an engineer would use this gunnery tool it would put him at a disadvantage because he cannot use other ammos in conjunction with it.

Let's take the example of the buffed greased gat. Right now, it will always be better than a gunner just with greased rounds and two other ammos, because the other Ammos aren't needed. But with a gunnery passive buff, the gunner will have the edge- always a permanent + 20% damage without all that silly clicking- and you get two other ammo types.

These passive tools shouldn't be limited to simulating buffs either. You could have passive tools for adding hp to the gun, reducing arming time, adding fire chance- the possibilities are nearly endless.

This fixes our problem and doesn't nerf the engineer who will always still have more repairing power. All it does is make the gunners better at well... Gunning.

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