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Call for Gunner Ammo Ideas

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Stuboi:

--- Quote from: Goldenglade on May 20, 2014, 08:08:33 pm ---we could always just make weapon jams a common thing for non-gunners.

--- End quote ---

That would be interesting actually.

Perhaps different ammo types increase or decrease the chances of a weapon jamming too?

redria:

--- Quote from: awkm on May 20, 2014, 06:04:08 pm ---RE: Impact... sort of

I don't mind weapons dealing Impact damage, what I don't want is that knockback given to all weapons.  If were ever the case, it'd have to be cleverly limited based on some variable like muzzle speed or explosive damage etc...  But same as above, I'd like it if it were linked to a gun.

--- End quote ---
Impact damage applies forces based on the damage dealt, correct? So a merc shot dealing 10 times the damage as a gatling bullet will apply 10 times the force (not actual numbers). But with the rapid fire and high ammo count of the gatling, the gatling would probably give more "push" over a full clip.

Perhaps 20% damage (down from 25%) or even 15% or 10%, and an ammo reduction identical to (or even worse than) lesmok. Actually, I'm sure someone could pretty quickly spreadsheet stuff and determine damage amounts and the force when compared to mines to find a nice balance where damage and force are both factors but neither one is overwhelming for any gun. Would be interesting to see which guns would shine with this ammo.

Really I just love impact damage and want more of it in the game.

~edit~
Re: jamming
I would be pretty heavily against jamming, especially if it varies between classes. Right now you are in complete control of your ship. The only dangers are the enemy and what they can do to you. Introducing the randomness of jamming (assuming it's a percent chance and disables a gun) would introduce a possibility that your perfect scenario trap gets wrecked because you were unlucky and your guns jammed up. There are ways to design around it (5% chance of a "jam", "jams" deal 5% damage to your gun, gunning tool that "buffs" a gun to reduce/prevent "jams"/damage) but it introduces a mechanic that is more random and frustrating than fun and inventive.

Saull:
In regards to jamming. This game, as a pvp only game with heavy reliance on team work and crew cooperation, can be considered to be pretty competitive and in my opinion competitive style games and "random elements" should be kept far apart. And that can be hard enough to do without making them a feature. I mean who exactly thought that the slip mechanic added to Brawl was a needed improvement over Melee?

Kushala Daora:
Having a shot or two with all bullet kinds and guns and ships, I've thought the balance through and I have to admit that the game's quite nicely balanced ship and gun wise. The roles and their gear, however, are a dull choice, and this is why I think this thread is necessary.

While I'm leaning towards normal ammo, I think the goal here is to make gunner as unique as other classes by modifying his gear (which consists of bullets), not make him necessary by making him the only class with useful ammunition. All combinations of crew roles should be viable.

So instead of making gunner shoot more hurtful bullets or shoot under angles no mount point can, I suggest ammo that changes the way guns shoot.


* Linked shot, a wonder of steampunk tinkering and cruelty, this ammo would cause sequential shots to be linked together in a different way in every gun, changing its role at the cost of damage. For example, small Flak would be forced to shoot in two round sequences (angles of first and second shot could be aimed), and its projectiles are linked with steel cable that would cause less damage to armor and hull, but would be devastating and entangling to equipment and engines, and may even kill/push the crew if it flies overboard. Hvatcha would be capable of launching a rocket powered net capable of stopping ship's horizontal movement (2 shots per clip max), Heavy mortar would fire heavy shells capable of pinning the ship to the ground, flamer would shoot strings of napalm, and I'm out of ideas for other guns.

Overall: damage and capacity highly reduced, new tactical blocking options in return.

* Combo shot, a shot similar to Linked, except it would solely focus on sequential hits and sustained fire. It would benefit the quick and accurate gunner, as the last or every second shot would cause increased damage and effect if it would connect right after the earlier shots. For example, Gatling would spin up and fire faster over time while reducing the turning speed, thus making it a killer against enemies with slower relative speeds, but making it less of a defensive weapon against charging enemies. Rocket carousel would be firing rockets alternating between rockets filled with gasoline that deal almost no damage and igniting rockets, that together guarantee starting fires, but alone wear off quickly. Flamethrower would spread liquid gasoline, possibly even making a gasoline clouds at the end of the range, and at the last few bits of fuel it would spew some fire and explosively ignite the enemy ship covered in gasoline. Flak would be shooting sticky latent dynamite, and last shot would be the detonator that can cause an explosion for more damage than a flak could ever cause.

Overall: A risky ammo - very high damage if the gunner shoots well, very little to no damage if the firing is interrupted.

* AoE Denial shot, a more defensive approach to ammo, would be focused on defending from the enemy. Almost all shots would cause a cloud of metal dust that functions like a sandstorm while blocking few kinds of projectiles. Biggest change would be to the Artemis - a slower rocket that could be remotely detonated (fly-by-wire anyone?) that would cause a very big cloud of rocket stopping, damaging dust that fades after a while. Flamethrower would have a very large cone of fire that quickly melts the rockets and shells flying within it, while greatly reducing range (probably no more than 15m). Mortar would be like Artemis but its effect would last longer or it could be more harmful. Flaks would cause smaller clouds upon hit (smaller than rockets), allowing for blocking enemies' gunners' vision.

Overall: Trading range/damage for the ability to defend and deter the enemy.

I tried to think of giving the gunner something that works differently from changing the fire rate or damage, and came up with this. Revolution is way better than buffing or nerfing.
But, if we decide that a rebalance is needed, I propose two simple rebalance options, based on how ununique the gunner is.


* Basically, we split equipment into two tiers: a shared, basic one and a class specific, advanced one.
In the first we would have few basic ammo types (almost all of the current gunner ammo), pipe wrench and extinguisher, and spy eye and rangefinder. Every class can take an item from the basic tier, but the advanced tier is left for the specific class.
In the advanced tier would be the  Lochanagar shot and heatsink clip and the new ammo that we are coming up with for the gunner; engineer would have the rubber mallet and spanner for efficient fixing, buff hammer, chemical spray, and any extra options the devs might come up with; pilots would have the privilege of flight assisting gizmos and maybe a new type of optic.
* We limit the amount of equipment all classes can have to about to 4, and allow to have more than one item in the class's category. This way everyone picking would have to decide whether they would focus solely on their role or be more flexible.
Not sure how that would work out, as the current flexibility allowed me to still be able to fight after the crew abandoned me (Happened last match, wasn't even the captain).
Edit: I know that devs already replied that making new weird shots is troublesome, but can i pleaseee get this idea considered without the extra work being an issue?

awkm:
Steering this back on track...

It is highly unlikely that we will implement tools, passives, or non-ammo related changes to the gunner in the near future.  None of those would be testable until several months out, and don't forget the several months of testing that comes with new things.  Furthermore, it breaks several design paradigms that are in place:

- Pilots tools can only be used on helm (aside from spotting, which are the only unique cases)
- Engineers tools can only be used while running around and on components
- Gunner ammo can only be used on a gun, while on a gun

There's a lot of inertia to stay that way because of how many of our systems are architected from UI, code, to design.  Introducing tools will also introduce confusing and unclear interactions.  Don't let this discourage you, though.  Remember that we can put many of the effects of the proposed tools into ammo types.

If it really seems like we need to move towards breaking our own rules, we will.  However, at this point there are other options (more diverse ammo) that are much faster to start testing on (next week even) and don't require us to strip out larges portions of the system.


RE: Unique behaviors per gun (linked/combo shot)

Interesting ideas sprinkled through those proposals.  However, we can't do unique behaviors for each gun with 1 ammo type.  Not only would it be unclear from a player to figure out what the ammo actually did (aside from testing each gun on their own or providing a wall of text to explain it), the code is not set up to handle those very specific cases, but the reasons not to do it have more to do with clarity and opacity of what the ammo is supposed to do rather than the actual implementation.

However, there may be something interesting about rewarding accuracy and consistency of shots.  How a piece of ammo knows that and explaining that is another story :P  Ah, game-isms.

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