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Why the current level system is not good
Velvet:
I agree with Omniraptor. The system Awkm is hinting at is everything wrong with achievements distilled from the limited benefits then amped up to 11.
I just don't understand why anyone thinks "nobody takes levelling up that seriously" is a good reason to settle for a badly designed levelling system. Even if we ignore how wrong the assertion is, the conclusion drawn is bad enough in itself.
Jaeger, I agree that people who make stupid decisions for the sake of achievements are generally in the minority. However there are more flaws to the current system than that; namely the missed opportunity to create a compelling levelling system that adds to rather than detracts from player's satisfaction at playing the game. I think a steadily increasing progress bar, while obviously not the core of the game's appeal, takes up the slack in times when the game's inherent enjoyability isn't holding up - for example as you're still learning to play or after a string of bad pub matches. honestly I think I personally would play pub games more often if I knew I'd get something out of it regardless of the unreliability of pub teams, even if it is just more progress towards some aesthetic items. As it is, the achievements system doesn't serve this role because the progress isn't so intuitive and highly trackable as an XP bar, and particularly later down the line the achievements grind to a stall completely; they're not an encouraging accompanying feature to enjoying the game, they become an end into themselves because you will stop getting them if you don't seek them out specifically.
Dementio:
--- Quote from: Velvet on May 21, 2014, 03:33:14 am ---I just don't understand why anyone thinks "nobody takes levelling up that seriously" is a good reason to settle for a badly designed levelling system.
--- End quote ---
But it's not badly designed, it just needs a little tuning.
Personally, I feel much more accomplished when I win 250 death matches instead of getting 100xp each win...
If I had an xp-bar I would just glance at it every once in a while and go "meh", while I can actually look at achievements and see what I can do.
If I had an xp-bar I would start to count levels as less important as they are. There is only 1 bar that fills up wether you win or lose and thus everybody levels up rather "easily". I would not see any indicator of "skill" if I look at somebodies level, the same is right now.
An xp-based level system would make leveling so flat that people might ignore it's very existence. Why wouldn't they? You just have to play some random matches and you get your cosmetic item. Might as well base that of the number of matches you played...
GreyTea:
So i have been lurking in this thread and notice what people are saying how about this is just an idea mind you to strike a nice balance how about xp for achievements? then everyone gets the best of both worlds?
But change achievments to more wins then matches played slightly tweek the numbers and objectives add more perfect victories or win by at least 3 kills.
Then have some for buff so many of x, then you have grind achievements which you will get over time but are still driven by winning games and gaining xp that way,
Also instead of level 5 you unlock a cosmetic it is for completing a tree of skills 5 objectives in tree 1 or 15 objectives overall?
I hope this makes sense.
Because if the desired changes are just number based and you keep the core foundation in place to work on, it is alot more realistic to achieve rather than a complete overhaul?
So what are the thoughts?
SyndicatedINC:
In the interest of full disclosure about this, I am annoyingly OCD about my levels. I don't play to level, but I have an illogical need to keep all my levels the same. So when I level up accidentally, I have to start grinding right away to equal them out.
--- Quote from: JaegerDelta on May 17, 2014, 12:49:25 pm ---i think you guys are looking at the levels from the wrong angle. they are not your rank, they are not an indicator of skill, they are infact an indicator of renown within the world. as you preform more and more amazing feats of skill, word of your name spreads in the world, and you "level up"
this is reflected in how the unlocks are handled and even in how the community treats levels.
you only unlock cosmetic items, those cosmetic items are things you have collected in your travels, perhaps given by greatfull people you have helped or looted from towns you have raided. a "higher level" person, i.e. someone who has performed more amazing feats has clearly spent more time traveling and therefor has more cosmetic items.
as far as how people treat levels in game. they are taken as a mark of experience and skill; high levels are assumed to be good, while low levels are assumed to not know what they are doing untill they prove themselves. Is this not how a famous person, regardless of actual skill, would be treated in the game world? their actions have spread around the world and their reputation precedes them. someone not as famous, lower level, would not have that same reputation and thusly assumed to be just an average joe untill they show their skill.
with no unlocks that affect gameplay being a part of leveling up, an achievement based system is the only way a level system makes sense at all. you just gotta get your heads out of cod land.
furthermore, i think you are overestimating the segment of the population for whom leveling up is a main motivator. secondary or tertiary sure, or they want a certain unlock so they have to level up to obtain it. but to have leveling up be THE reason they are playing the game, i just find it hard to believe that is a very large segment of any game.
--- End quote ---
^Listen to this person, they are quite wise. As I have played ever increasing games with the 'old guard' of this game, one universal factor is that the "better" the player, the less they pay attention to the class rank of someone as some form of measure of talent.
--- Quote from: Dementio on May 18, 2014, 04:57:04 pm ---With my argument I had simple logic in mind: The more matches he played, the more experienced he gathered. The more experience he has, the better he is in the game.
It's only an assumption and even some high level players are considered to be bad at everything they do, but it's the best we currently have in this game. Or do you want to be able to see every single stat MUSE database has about this player, similar to your own progess tab?
No matter what kind of indicator this game has, in the end you will have to play with the person in question to know how good/bad said person really is.
--- End quote ---
The Game Proper in other words, treats it as a level of dedication/time spent, nothing more. Which is pointed out by this comment later in this thread by Dementio and is as JaegerDelta was stating.
--- Quote from: macmacnick on May 18, 2014, 12:30:54 am ---I personally find the Achievement-based system nicer as it allows for any achievement to count equally to any level, and it is a more unique aspect to GoIO and Velvet, it would not be terribly easy to convert achievements, as you could literally go the same way with the achievements if you wanted to convert them into said hypothetical experience points. however, the achievement system, to an extent allows one to level up even if they were on a loosing streak. Basing levels off of wins would just motivate the culture to shift more so in the Call of Duty direction, motivating people to go for the quick kill, removing the tactics from it all, and above all, motivation to steal the kills of others, which is no bueno.
--- End quote ---
I also must say I wholly agree with macmacnick in this regard. The current system gives someone a purpose or goal to work on at all times, even when victory is impossible. Nearly everyone here will have known the pure ecstatic joy that comes from a bitter defeat, only to find out by surprise that you finished some long forgotten incomplete achievement that you had abandoned trying to work on.
While true that to get to the highest levels one must really do all of the challenging achievements, at the lower and mid levels you can really have an unbalanced completion list which is pretty neat. Looking over mine I certainly notice what my play styles have favored over others. For example I believe I was a level 7 or 8 pilot before I completed the win with goldfish achievement, quite simply because I hate flying those, so never did, and when I on rare occasion did, usually failed miserably. That did not prevent me from leveling. It may have slowed my progress slightly, however how can one claim to deserve the highest levels of pilot if one is a novice beginner at one of the core ships. Recall again that these levels are a measure of experience as much as anything.
--- Quote from: awkm on May 20, 2014, 06:45:52 pm ---Yup, planning on ways to move towards non achievement based leveling.. more XP related... things you shoot... things you repair... etc.
When? Dunno! Definitely for co-op though.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: Grey T on May 21, 2014, 10:35:15 am ---So i have been lurking in this thread and notice what people are saying how about this is just an idea mind you to strike a nice balance how about xp for achievements? then everyone gets the best of both worlds?
But change achievments to more wins then matches played slightly tweek the numbers and objectives add more perfect victories or win by at least 3 kills.
Then have some for buff so many of x, then you have grind achievements which you will get over time but are still driven by winning games and gaining xp that way,
Also instead of level 5 you unlock a cosmetic it is for completing a tree of skills 5 objectives in tree 1 or 15 objectives overall?
I hope this makes sense.
Because if the desired changes are just number based and you keep the core foundation in place to work on, it is alot more realistic to achieve rather than a complete overhaul?
So what are the thoughts?
--- End quote ---
You already have you answer given in the existing system, with one minor tweak. Stop having the achievements work as strictly linear as they currently do. The reason being the example posted here by VictorSturm:
--- Quote from: VictorSturm on May 20, 2014, 01:13:57 pm ---i find that the main problem is, that instead of encouraging new tactics and experimentation, the result is annoying grinding. in the beginning i played a lot as pilot with the Pyramidion, without gaining any points for using this ship. thats because, while the current challenge is "Goldfish mastery" i don't earn anything from using other ships! so you have to use the goldfish and win 10 matches. fair enough, but after 5 wins, it's beginning to get tedious. but you can't change ships if you want to level up. the system that tries to make us experiment is making us grind.
the fact that other achievements ruin co-op is even worse. a pilot that runs around fixing guns for the "Helping hand"? that ruins your day.
kill stealing is becoming a thing.
rushing in to set things on fire puts the crew, and the team in risk.
--- End quote ---
Also again echoed by SeraphZ
--- Quote from: SeraphZ on May 20, 2014, 05:14:01 pm ---
--- Quote from: VictorSturm on May 20, 2014, 05:07:14 pm ---yes, more achivements open at one time would solve a lot of frustration. having to concentrate on using burst rounds while other similar ach. are locked off doesn't feel organic. if i have already destroyed with a flametrhower, why don't that count?
--- End quote ---
I totally agree - as you said in your first comment the result is a grind. Why would you ever do that to your player base? I just want to have fun & shoot stuff.
--- End quote ---
In short, if I pilot a ship at helm which scores a kill at >1300 meters, it currently does not count until I have completed all the achievements in the levels below it of THAT specific category. Thus the result becomes either grinding or extremely long delays in leveling. People are clearly annoyed with both such options. However if any achievement action can be achieved at any time, then players can focus on just playing, and level up far quicker than they do now, without any need for grinding unless someone is playing solely to level-up. Final result being less complaining about the need to wait or grind, except by those ocd folks such as myself who want to keep all classes the same level, but I think I can safely say that we are the minority. :-p
Omniraptor:
--- Quote from: JaegerDelta on May 20, 2014, 08:22:18 pm ---
--- Quote from: Omniraptor on May 20, 2014, 07:54:42 pm ---
--- Quote from: awkm on May 20, 2014, 06:45:52 pm ---Yup, planning on ways to move towards non achievement based leveling.. more XP related... things you shoot... things you repair... etc.
When? Dunno! Definitely for co-op though.
--- End quote ---
Please make it based on wins instead of specific stuff you do in-game. Basically if you reward specific actions in-game people are going to gravitate towards playing based on XP gain instead of playing to win, just like they are now. NOBODY wants a pilot running around repairing guns 'for xp' or 'for an achievement'. IMO the best way is to simply reward WINNING matches against equal or higher-skilled opponents, while disregarding what actually goes on in the match, because the definition of playing well varies immensely from ship to ship and player to player, and it's wrong to measure them all by the same stick.
This system would allow for the widest variety of playstyles and encourages better play for XP. If you run out of higher-skilled opponents to gain XP from, join a tournament, which incidentally also also helps the community and promotes good play. It would basically work like an ELO system, except nobody would ever lose points.
--- End quote ---
except for that directly hinders the player who does not have time or interest in tournaments and the "competitive" scene in general.
again, when you say people are playing in such a way that they intentionally sabotage their ship now for achievements, or that they will do so in the future with xp, what sort of games are you playing that you are running into that problem in such a significant quantity and/or severity? Are people really playing for the achievements or are you not communicating with your shipmates leading to their ideas of what is the right course of action differing from yours? (or perhaps you are mistaking ignorance of mechanics as malice) I have a sneaking suspicion that your memories are playing tricks on you with regard to how widespread that problem is. I too run into people who are not playing the most efficient game of guns of icarus ever, but usually it is due to inexperience with the game or a misunderstanding of mechanics; not achievement hunting.
--- End quote ---
how does it hinder them? not letting them farm xp by stomping less-experienced players over and over? That's actually a good thing, grinding in any form shouldn't be rewarded. If a player is good enough that they have reached the highest level, by definition they can't get any better.
Once again, I want the level syystem to be a mark of both skill and dedication, not just dedication. Buffing 500 engines requires dedication, but is not very renown-worthy, while winning 500 games against higher-level players requires skill and dedication, and thus should be incentivised/rewarded.
p.s. If I ever just want to see how dedicated and famous a player is, I can look at number of matches played. it's a better measurement than the current level system, while the level can be turned into something else, as awkm wants to do.
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