1.3.6 Hotfix Flamethrower

[-Mad Maverick-]

just a mentality shift not a stress shift... it's learning how many stacks is actually a threat,  it's committing to bringing heat sink.   it's being properly punished for allowing a flamer to get close to you.   the last part is important to remember;  close range weapons need to be punishing up close otherwise the risk reward ratio would be wrong.   if I took the great risk to close the gap on a ship and get up close and personal the reward needs to be equally great...

[Nidh]

I... can't believe I'm saying this but I agree with Janeway. The extremely limited close range of the flamer warrants it's strength as a disabler. Sniping teams now have something to fear from a brawling team. However, on a hwacha/heavy carro goldfish particularly, any other light gun seems sub-par to put on as an active bifecta weapon, the other choices being banshee, carronade, or artemis. The flamer outclasses them all at the cost of range, which I guess is how it should be, though I'm still unsure.

[Wundsalz]

I still don't get your heatsink-hype. In almost all cases I'd prefer chemspray + dps-optimizing ammo over heatsink for the sole sake of fire prevention. E.g. on a gatling gun greased rounds deal more than 1.5 times the damage of heatsink rounds. I don't believe the flamer changes encourage the usage of the gunner class. Rather the opposite actually as they are helpless against fires if they usa ammo that does something useful for the damage output.

[-Mad Maverick-]

first,  nidh we have always agreed on the most important things, like brawling is the most fun that I talk too much or that the falcs were awesome!  but as to you point about the flamer outclassing those other guns I disagree.  if I am against an opponent that is bringing heatsink and keeping up on the chem spray my flamers will be completely out done by a gat or a caro.   it's just a Rock Paper Scissors match now instead of only being a rock rock match...

[-Mad Maverick-]

and wund I'm telling you right now you aren't thinking about how to beat flamers correctly.  I don't want to explain it all here cuz then how would I beat you with it?  I suggest asking those who were in beta when flamers were awesome.  they will probably help you learn.  or I will fly with you and show you

[-Mad Maverick-]

but hint hint:  it isn't trying to out dps them

[XtremeNameX]

This new one definitely is closer to balanced, but I really think it needs another slight change. I mean, if putting 1 weapon on my boat forces the other team's entire crew to re-build their engi equipment just so they can handle it... that seems OP.

I'd say either bring in range or lower through-chem fire damage. Possibly both, but in any case it should just be a very minor nerfing.

[Sammy B. T.]

Yall are acting like getting in flamer range is nigh impossible. It is quite easy actually and one solitary flamer alone can lock down any ship with its ridiculous fire stack capabilities. Chem spray is now mandatory with the weapon and with the nerf of chem spray, the ability to repair and chem the ship is greatly diminished.

Previously you could chem once, mallet twice, however, with the extra two seconds of chem spray, this is no longer an option due to it leaving your hull exposed meaning that against flamers you need due alternate between mallet and chem one for one.

Here's the repair per second

Full time mallet (unusable due to ridiculous flamer)
250 repair/9 seconds = 28 RPS (repair per second)
Previous 2 mallet 1 chem (unusable due to chem nerf)
500 repair/21 seconds = 23 RPS
Current 1 mallet 1 chem (required due to stack buff)
250 repair/ 14 seconds = 17 RPS


Basically the flamer currently makes repairs nearly half as effective. Also the 1:1 ratio is horribly ineffective as it requires far more babysitting and far less optimal time with chem spray (6 seconds wasted) this is pretending that the only issue here is hull damage. While the flamer is doing its negation of effective hull repairs, stacks are building up on the ship like crazy. You've got 250 particles of which all are hitting probably two if not three or four different components. Each of those particles has an 18% ignition chance so if by some miracle each particle only hits the ship once, un-chem sprayed you could have 45 stacks across your ship from one clip.

Balanced my ass. People think its overpowered now? Wait till you see actual meta builds around it as opposed to people goofing off with it. One gun being able to half the repairs on armor and balloon and take out weapons, its beyond ridiculous.

[macmacnick]

Yall are acting like getting in flamer range is nigh impossible. It is quite easy actually and one solitary flamer alone can lock down any ship with its ridiculous fire stack capabilities. Chem spray is now mandatory with the weapon and with the nerf of chem spray, the ability to repair and chem the ship is greatly diminished.

Previously you could chem once, mallet twice, however, with the extra two seconds of chem spray, this is no longer an option due to it leaving your hull exposed meaning that against flamers you need due alternate between mallet and chem one for one.

Here's the repair per second

Full time mallet (unusable due to ridiculous flamer)
250 repair/9 seconds = 28 RPS (repair per second)
Previous 2 mallet 1 chem (unusable due to chem nerf)
500 repair/21 seconds = 23 RPS
Current 1 mallet 1 chem (required due to stack buff)
250 repair/ 14 seconds = 17 RPS


Basically the flamer currently makes repairs nearly half as effective. Also the 1:1 ratio is horribly ineffective as it requires far more babysitting and far less optimal time with chem spray (6 seconds wasted) this is pretending that the only issue here is hull damage. While the flamer is doing its negation of effective hull repairs, stacks are building up on the ship like crazy. You've got 250 particles of which all are hitting probably two if not three or four different components. Each of those particles has an 18% ignition chance so if by some miracle each particle only hits the ship once, un-chem sprayed you could have 45 stacks across your ship from one clip.

Balanced my ass. People think its overpowered now? Wait till you see actual meta builds around it as opposed to people goofing off with it. One gun being able to half the repairs on armor and balloon and take out weapons, its beyond ridiculous.

The sunny (flaming) side of this, Sammy, is the fact that now, instead of being killed really quickly by a Gatling-mortar combo, is that you get to witness the chaos (Yay!) and that Cake Vs. Ducks in competitive would be less of a Kobayashi Mrau situation (Not Kobayashi maru) and more of a balanced fight, along with an entrée of roast duck to be followed by a dessert of sweet pastries!











/sarcasm

[-Mad Maverick-]

I'd say either bring in range or lower through-chem fire damage. Possibly both, but in any case it should just be a very minor nerfing.

I agree and have made both of these suggestions myself

[XtremeNameX]

I agree and have made both of these suggestions myself

I just figured I'd reiterate them in case awkm thinks the majority opinion is "hotfix changes are enuogh"

The sunny (flaming) side of this, Sammy, is the fact that now, instead of being killed really quickly by a Gatling-mortar combo, is that you get to witness the chaos (Yay!) and that Cake Vs. Ducks in competitive would be less of a Kobayashi Mrau situation (Not Kobayashi maru) and more of a balanced fight, along with an entrée of roast duck to be followed by a dessert of sweet pastries!

I know you're kidding around but let's not miss another good point that Sammy raises: a quicker ship can always, and rather easily, close and unleash the flames in a slower ship's face. Which would be fine and part of balance, except that the flamer is such a powerful & disabling CQC weapon that the slower ships' other advantages (more firepower or armor) are rendered useless very quickly.

[-Mad Maverick-]

I disagree smaller ships can be easily blown apart by slower better armed ships from afar and alternately with heatsink and chem spray loaded up would be able to weather the initial attack giving it plenty of time to disable in turn or simply kill it with superior firepower...

[Buchou]

played a game the other night against a flamer/carronade pyra.

first game - didn't have chem spray since i hadn't played since the initial flamer changes. hull was going from 0 to 20 flame stacks within the cooldown time of the mallet.
second game - took wrench/chem/ext because I was so scared of the flamer. this worked out fine, but every time I missed a chem spray application, a component died, whether it was the one on fire or another one that died as a result of me fixing the one that was constantly getting ignited.

[redria]

This is much closer to being balanced, but it also feels wrong. Maybe it's from using flamethrower too much before, or maybe it's that people hardly ever used flamethrower on me, but right now it feels wrong somehow.

My initial desire was for low damage and easy fire stacking.
The damage right now is probably pretty good. I think you could argue in either direction, but if I were to choose one I would say it is a smidge on the low side (by like .1 per particle or so).
But the fire stacks feel broken. Previously people could make a personal choice on chem vs ext and it would usually be pretty okay. Now I get scared when someone on my ship has an extinguisher, or when I have a low level on my ship. Right now everyone has to be involved in keeping the chem up, which doesn't feel good.
Essentially, previously a flamer was like any other individual weapon: dangerous if you ignored it long enough, but something that could be combated by decent engineers. Now it feels like ignoring a flamethrower for half a second leaves you with nothing: no balloon, engines, guns, or armor.

The fire stacks are a really cool concept, but the speed with which they grow feels absurd, even admitting that I was a fan of having a higher stack growth.

In my opinion there are 2 directions to go with this: nerf the flamethrower some more, or buff fire tools.
Nerfing the flamethrower reduces its ability to be used as a feature weapon, but makes it less abusive to anyone who doesn't intimately understand the game.
Buffing fire tools places more responsibility on engineers, making it a higher skill weapon to fight against.

I am more a fan of nerfing the flamethrower a bit in 2 ways:
Start cutting into the range a bit
Lower the fire stack chance (again)

Right now it isn't very fun. You are fighting fire, not the enemy. It may not be strictly OP at the moment, but it is too strong in a way that makes the game less fun (in my opinion)

[Byron Cavendish]

I agree. Bottom line, it isn't fun. Even with a good crew, in TS with you, you feel helpless and therefore frustrated.