1.3.6 Harpoon Changes

[Richard LeMoon]

I would rather see a 50% reduction in force. I want to see this gun "reel in enemies", not go 'Bass Pro Hulk Smash Fishing'.

Easier to fire (due to new velocity), shorter reload (as it has), short duration (as it has to avoid physics strangeness), and weaker force would accomplish this. Constantly hitting another ship with weaker harpoons would pull your ships together at a reasonable, non-moonshine-breakneck-whiplash-inducing speed. It would also allow for piloting tools to actually compensate for connecting a harpoon.

[Crafeksterty]

Turning down the force is making the harpoon mundane. And in a way, turning it back into previous harpoon.
Having a strong effect makes for an actual use. And some creative abuse if you commit. I dont want to commit to simply actualy using harpoon. Not worth it at all..
The harpoon does not have much else, so strong force is all it has. And that force is what you want use for the moment.
It is a utility gun, every other actual gun is better than the harpoon, but the effects of the harpoon is what youl want to use, and thus is why its strong with short duration, and a long reload from it being abused.

The muzzl speed increase is great because it makes the use of the utility more guranteed.

[Richard LeMoon]

And completely un-fun to use. Reducing the force by half would in no way make it anything like the original harpoon. It is supposed to reel in, not be a high-powered, single use rope trap. It is not useful at all on most ships due to the fact that pulling something that hard will likely destroy you. It overpowers ALL engines. It is inescapable once set. That is just ridiculous.

This should NOT be a ram aid on steroids, or the reverse of a mine impact. It should be an escape deterrent, like it is meant to be. I don't understand all this "Make it stronger. Make it stronger. Longer reload." garbage talk that went on during testing, taking it further and further from how it is supposed to work, and into stupidly overpowered force and ridiculously long and un-fun to actually shoot reload times.

Do you even gun? I do, and I know it sucks to shoot. Stop thinking from the captain's seat and spend a good amount of time trying to gun with this thing.

With the same duration and reload it has now in devapp, but a lower force, gunners will feel like they are doing something at the same time as actually having an effect, even if it is not an instant moonshine change in acceleration. More like mild, continuous kerosine. Aimed right, it will still throw off a pilot's course, but not to the extant of instantly spinning them 90 degrees.

[Crafeksterty]

You dont gun the harpoon, you simply fire it. It is a utility gun, and as a captains part of seat, you need to be prepared.
If a captain has a harpoon on his ship, he will have to brace the ship for it.

If you are going to fire the harpoon with half force and fast reload, BOTH ships will be dragged and reeled in. So continuesly being reeled in and the one to fire it is going to be annoying and will result in previous harpoon effects, just that it is manual rather than automatic. What we have now is one quick use of the harpoon. It has huge arcs, quick rotation speed, and with muzzle upgrade it is a weapon you can easily just jump on and fire. It isnt slow, and clunky to aim with so you have to BE on it constantly.

[Richard LeMoon]

It is not a utility gun. It is a strategy gun. Careful planning must be put into its use. It creates a specific effect, and requires specific pilot tools and flying to use. It is used to reposition and possibly damage an enemy as an assault weapon. That negates it as a 'utility' gun and puts it into disable and strategy territory.

Its current usage in the game shows its 'utility' and perceived usefulness. New players use it. Experienced do not. That makes long reloads, strong force a failed experiment.

[Crafeksterty]

Because it was difficult to hit with.

Halfing the force and the reload will simply make the harpoons effect less desirable by the user. And forcing a constant use, that will most likely end up in uncontrolled spirals like the previous harpoon. The reason why i call it utility because its a weapon you want to use for a specific situation, in a specific time.

Experienced players dont use it because its a tad bit un tweaked. The current harpoon came out of the blue, and in a suprise. And most people where happy, problem is that the reload was too long. But the strength of it is still desirable. That is why we are here. Trying to make the harpoon we have now work a bit more better.

Making the reload short enough to fire another harpoon just as the other one breaks is very much prone to abuse, and in effect will mimic the previous harpons effect. Just that it is being made manualy, instead of automaticly where one has to manualy disable the rope. On the current harpoon, its effects are very helpfull. The problem lies in the gurantee of being able to land it. Again, Its quick to use and in its wide arc, make that shot easier to land because it only has 1 shot. With a quicker reload, and any given force that is enough, it will hit ships way too easy, again and again, and thus be abused. And that is the sole reason for the reload being long. We dont want constant juggling for control anymore.  Oh and, its utility in a sense that it disrupts the enemy. There is no large amount of direct damage, it just messes up the flow of the enemy ship who isnt prepared. Which is a utility use. All other guns, except for the flare is very specific on dealing direct form of offence on the enemy. A carronade doesnt kill, but it directly affects numbers and health which engineers must respond to. While the harpoon and flare, you cannot exactly respond directly to. You simply have to deal with its effect.

[Dementio]

If you think about it, how much abuse will you get from the harpoon if its reload time is shorter? You still have to give up 1 gun slot for it. This 1 gun slot could help you kill/disable faster.

Example Pyramidion with harpoon on the front:
If it has a harpoon on the front it will most likely get a flamer or a gatling to pair it up with (if not a second harpoon). If the enemy is a gat/mortar pyra it can easily kill that harpoon ship.
If you led it get behind you, it's no different from letting any other enemy behind you -> you are dead. The harpoon would make sure that the enemy cannot escape with special pilot tool tricks.

Example Pyramidion (or any ship for that matter) with harpoon on the side:
The same as above. You lose killing potentional, but at least the enemy can't run away or around you too easily.

Example Galleon with harpoon on the side:
If you get on the side of a galleon you are doing something wrong. The harpoon makes sure you will learn your lesson.


Whatever the reload time is, the very idea of putting this gun on your ship is questionable, because you simply lose quite a bit of killing and/or disable potentional.

But at least the enemy can't get away, right? Wrong.
With the current harpoon physics you are the one that moves in on the enemy and not even reliably. In most cases you will lose almost all of your gun arcs, having you standing right next to the enemy without any chance of attacking. In the worst case scenario, the enemy still has arcs on you while you just lose yours, giving him the advantage he needs to kill/disable you without you being able to defend yourself.
If I am not incorrect than the harpoon barely reels in the enemy, but speeds you up towards them and this sucks.

I can understand that a squid should not be able to reel in a galleon, but if a spire harpoons a squid, backwards moonshines and still moves towards the squid, than I believe something is wrong.


I don't need quicker reload times, if the weapon itself does what I need it to do. If the harpoon physics are not getting changed, then I want a new tool that is suggested here: https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,3960.0.html

[Crafeksterty]

I believe the squid gets pulled even harder. And that the pull turns the ship acording to where it hit him.
For example, harpooning a pyra on his side, but more torwards his engines will turn him away from you, more on his front will turn him against you.

Harpooning with a spire isnt really ideal either. While the squid can harpoon few ships.
Its true that the harpoon effect is detriment on the dealing side also. It should be possible to split the harpoon force away from the dealer. Or atleast, thats what i like to believe. But ive noticed its a gun that you may or may not want to choose dependant on your ship, versus some other ship.

[Dementio]

Why wouldn't you want a harpoon on a spire? If the spire is close range, that is.
The spire is slow and thus unable to chase, but it can turn rather quickly.
It has 4 guns pointing in the same direction (somewhat at least). Three of those can shoot simultaneously while the pilot can still move the ship around. The harpoon is the situational 4th gun.

The harpoon on the spire would make sure that nothing can escape it and its 2 to 3 other guns.
Of course it's different when a pyra charged at it head first...

[Crafeksterty]

All 4 guns are usually reserved for killing as quick as possible. Like i cant even place a flair in there even tho i wish i had one at times.
Harpooning with the spire would then have to be placed on the middle. So that the momentum isnt greatly shifted when landing a harpoon. Which ive done a couple times. It just never came to the situation to, turn their arcs away, or trap them from escaping because im such a grand target (becuzspire) that they always target me. You WANT them to run away. That extra 4th gun used by either the engineer or pilot  (Depending on the build) always ends up deciding what the Spire is overpowering the other ship at.

So to me, its detrimental because it takes away a 4th gun that combos with the rest of the guns. But i always use it on my goldie, like... always.

But your question does make me think about it more. I would use it versus a junker. But junkers arent exactly easiest to hit. Squids i believe are the best ships to choose harpoon versus. Pyramideons, no thanks. Mobulas, 50/50. Galleons, no thanks. Spires, Rather have the 4th gun. Goldfish, rather have the 4th gun.

Ive mostly used it versus squids and goldies (With the spire). But never really considered it again on my spire :/

[Richard LeMoon]

Well, it comes down to this. Crafeksterty wants the harpoon to match his play style. I want the harpoon to do what it is supposed to do, and let people adjust tactics to that.

I actually have used the harpoon on a Spire. It worked very well... for each shot. During the long reloads, it was rubbish and caused the strategy to fail. An enemy that would have been dead was able to simply fly away during a reload, and kill our teammate. Why? Because the harpoon does NOT functionally reel ships in. It gives a short burst of repositioning or turning. It is being used as a disable gun. It is not meant to be a disable gun. It is meant to be a range control gun. It fails miserably at this.

If you want a gun to do what you are suggesting, suggest a new gun.

[Crafeksterty]

Wow! Richard! What got up in your grill?

Im not suggesting this for my playstyle, im supporting what muse did with the harpoon. Because i believe it was a good choice for the harpoon. And to further develope it for players to simply use it is the muzzle speed.

The harpoon half force and half reload wont do what you want it to do. Its going to go all ape the more harpoons you place. The previous harpoon had a very long duration but the force was aprox... weaker than half of this. And even that was ape.


And to clarify, ive seen players use this harpoon to its success. Albeit some are ineffective. (Addition: Front Harpoon junker is a great chaser) A double harpoon junker with coordination can make for some devestating results in terms of breaking the positions. Double harpoon Pyramidion front is a bit innefective but can make for instant kills. Galleon harpoon is super effective. Mobula and spires dont really benefitt much from harpoon and really rather not be harpooned. The squid can only pull some ships, like the moby, spire (maybe), another squid, goldfish. And for the goldfish, i dont play it too much but i finaly use the harpoon on it.

[Richard LeMoon]

The current change is the result of faulty feedback from players, same as the flamethrower. Only one was hotfixed.

The harpoon did 'ape' things before precisely because it held on too long for what the mechanics were trying to do. Breaking that connection resets the mechanics. Firing more rapid harpoons will result in nothing like the original harpoon mechanics, which were almost 20 times weaker than they are now. It will just result in a less extreme pull for the same amount of time (5 seconds). Then the mechanics disengage, and reset with the next hit. How can that be MORE 'ape' than the insane stuff it does now? I don't follow your logic at all.

Imagine taking it all the way back to 10,000n, but with the 5 second duration/8 second reload the DevApp has now. It would barely do anything. It would not be 'ape'. So, tell me HOW making the force weaker than it is now, but stronger than it was, with the same exact duration would make it 'ape'. Tell me how setting weaker multiple harpoons is more 'ape' than setting multiple stronger harpoons. You make zero sense on this.

Weaker force, same 5 second duration, 8 second reload from DevApp= same effect, though much weaker, almost twice as fast.  Does NOT = 'ape'.

Pilots will be able to counter the effects with tools, but only have a 3 second window of maneuvering instead of NOT being able to counter at all, and having almost 10 seconds to recover. The first option makes sense in the game. The second is ape.

[awkm]

Guys, let's try to reel it back a notch (see what I did there?).  I understand you are all very passionate.  However, let's not speculate.  If you'd like to test something in particular, please let me know.

From what I've read, it's clear that I should increase reload speed a tad after muzzle speed increase.

Any other requests for tests?

[Richard LeMoon]

I have been asking for a test of 100,000n with 5s duration, 8 second reload (actually 6 s previously, but I like like the 5/8 in devapp) since we started testing it. I was drown out by the "MOAR POWERS CAN'T FEEL IT!" crowd.