Changing loadout during game

[BlackenedPies]

I noticed that I am no longer able to change class/loadout once a match has started. I cannot stress how essential this is for players. If I accidentally choose the wrong loadout I am stuck with it. Yesterday I joined a match right as it started and was stuck as a second pilot and unable to switch. Please please PLEASE revert this. It only causes problems and now ships will be stuck with extra pilots and gunners unless they leave- which is unlikely to happen. PLEASE

[N-Sunderland]

Leave the match, switch your tools, hit the resume button (if you're the wrong class the resume button doesn't help, so find the match you were in via the match list and join through there instead). It's not that quick, but it prevents people from gaining an advantage by changing their tools on the fly.

[BlackenedPies]

Ok i get it. I don't see how this prevents people from gaining an advantage because they can still change their tools mid-match, it just complicates class switching. I don't see how switching classes constitutes an advantage because you switch classes to fix a DISADVANTAGE on your ship. Removing a disadvantage is not gaining an advantage. I don't get the point of locking people into one class.

[N-Sunderland]

There are many ways an on-the-fly class-switching system could be abused. A player could effectively get the three ammo types of a gunner and the engineer's three repair tools by timing their class switches right. For example gunner would be able to switch to engineer during lulls in action to buff everything, then switch back to gunner. Even a system with a one-time switch would be flawed. The player could still, for example, get one round of buffs in before their switch, which they wouldn't have otherwise had the opportunity to do. Same goes for engi and loading different ammo types.

Though a big part of your problem seems to be jumping into matches right before they start, which is always really annoying. Muse should definitely make it so people are blocked from joining during the match-start countdown.

[macmacnick]

Certain Loadouts occasionally are used to counter particular situations, such as countering a galleon with lochnagar Flaks. The example in this case is a Galleon. If the gunner brings ammunition such as greased, lesmok, and heatsink, and then switches the greased and the heatsink for charged and Lochnagar, the change can cause an unexpected advantage, as beforehand, the Heavy Flaks wouldn't be as much of a perceivable issue, but with Lochnagar, it starts to become worrying, as Lochnagar heavy flaks one-shot any ship that is not a Galleon (or Goldfish if it has no damage or barely any on its permahull), thus the other team might have long range such as a hades and a lumberjack, along with an artemis or so, but they wouldn't be worried as much, due to the perceived Loadout being different from the one actually used.
(Edit: made the paragraph three sentences from one.)

[BlackenedPies]

Ah I see, I'll have to try buffing and switching next time. Thanks for the good ideas, I'll inform my crew for free buffs. Players can still take buff hammers then switch without penalty.

I think it would be better if everyone was allowed one switch per match- either to change their load or class, and rejoining through the lobby list would put them as their last used load. Of course this would allow one engi to buff and switch, but I think it would be a better solution. The other engi would either have to start as buff and switch or start as normal and switch to buff. Either way this means that they would be stuck as buff engi for some period. It would also prevent the gunner from buffing then switching unless they started with a buff hammer- which would render the first engineer's buff and switch ineffective. This would allow for a brief advantage at the start, or the ability for one engi to switch to buff at some point during the match- like near the end.

Or put on a time penalty for intentional leaving, or a time penalty for repeated intentional leaving. The way I see it, the current system just complicates switching class while still allowing tool switching. If I'm a gunner I can still grab a buff hammer then switch without changing to engineer.

[Crafeksterty]

I disagree completely. Most of the players in the lobby had the time to switch for the correct everything. IF they get an incorrect tool/loadout, its their fault.

And for the players that join in with bad luck. Simply have bad luck. And that does not happen as often as players that are allready ready with assumed correct tools.
Its like... 0.5/18 (or less) players per pub lobby have this problem.

[GeoRmr]

Class and tool switching is already possible, I don't see why they don't implement a feature in-game that lets you switch class without leaving the match but also provides a timer penalty where you can't play, similar to the already existing afk feature. It could have other restrictions, such as once per game and only in the first 120 seconds of the game.

[BlackenedPies]

Players can still freely switch their tools, they just can't switch classes. I don't get why locking classes fixes the buff advantage problem because any class can take a buff hammer.  I can think of many reasons why switching classes mid-match would be necessary that don't constitute taking advantage (like if new players join). I think a simple timer penalty would be an effective partial solution. It wouldn't fix the problem but it would reduce the incentive to take advantage of extra buffs. The current system puts ships without a full crew at a disadvantage because second gunners joining is common.

None of this is a problem for experienced players, but it is for inexperienced players. Inexperienced players are not taking advantage of extra buffs so there's no reason to penalize disorganized less-experienced crews by disallowing class switching. Buffing and switching is still easy and like GeoRmr said, there are other solutions to limit switching.

The way I see it, this just hurts less experienced crews more than experienced crews.

[N-Sunderland]

Nobody's taking advantage of it because it takes too long for any advantage to be gained. In the time you spend fetching tools, an engagement could easily start and when it does the crew will be (briefly) stuck with an AI. Or if you're a gunner and you've switched to a buff hammer, what if an engage starts while you're buffing? Then you have nothing to fix your guns with. Trust me, no experienced players actually try to exploit switching tools. It just wouldn't work well.

[Mod Josie]

Nobody's taking advantage of it because it takes too long for any advantage to be gained.

Nobody should be taking advantage of it anyway. Okay, so the occasional mistake is made. There is a cheeky workaround for that simply because mistakes happen. However, abusing that ability to change one's load-out or class in the middle of the match is simply cheating. You can't just go materialising tools out of the air.

Besides, if people started abusing this ability in competitive matches, there would be uproar and teams would get disqualified. Eventually Muse would remove that workaround. It isn't their intention to let you class switch.

[N-Sunderland]

Nobody's taking advantage of it because it takes too long for any advantage to be gained.

Nobody should be taking advantage of it anyway. Okay, so the occasional mistake is made. There is a cheeky workaround for that simply because mistakes happen. However, abusing that ability to change one's load-out or class in the middle of the match is simply cheating. You can't just go materialising tools out of the air.

Besides, if people started abusing this ability in competitive matches, there would be uproar and teams would get disqualified. Eventually Muse would remove that workaround. It isn't their intention to let you class switch.

I don't agree. As I explained above, attempting to use it to your advantage is ridiculously inefficient and comes with high risk. Any competitive team trying to make use of such a tactic would be putting themselves at a disadvantage.

[Alistair MacBain]

Probably no longer a problem with the coming matchmaking ...

[Mod Josie]

I don't agree. As I explained above, attempting to use it to your advantage is ridiculously inefficient and comes with high risk. Any competitive team trying to make use of such a tactic would be putting themselves at a disadvantage.

I think we're on the same page and coming at it from different angles . I agree with you that it is inefficient and isn't particularly of much use in the heat of battle - but the system isn't designed for that, and it certainly shouldn't be abused to apply start-of-game buffs as was mentioned above. I call that cheating .

[BlackenedPies]

If using switching as an advantage is risky and inefficient then why block class switching? I just hate having extra gunners or pilots and the majority of the time I start without a full crew. Less experienced players join in as a wrong class all the time and I just want it to be easy for them to switch. Start of game buffs are still possible and I don't see why we can't have class switching.