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Pilot Skills - Chute Vent/Hydrogen

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RearAdmiralZill:
That's just the nature of gun arcs, which is most likely why Hydrogen is more costly then Chute.

HamsterIV:
I miss my crazy dancing pyramidion, dodging manticore volleys was awesome. The only thing I want mass to affect is the outcome of rams, vertical movement tools should scale up or down with the ship.

Thomas:
Drag is the resistance of motion. Ultimately if affects the top speed a ship can reach. Reducing the drag increases the top speed, while increasing the drag reduces it. So my statement about the drogue chute slowing the acceleration is incorrect, it actually reduces the maximum falling speed.
http://gunsoficarus.com/community/forumarchive/discussion/1069/questions-on-thrust-drag-the-affects-of-speed-and-more/p1


Ship mass does not affect balloon damage from the tools, that is static. (Did some testing just to triple check). Although the testing revealed that the items do more balloon damage than I originally thought. It took 8 spanner hits to fully repair a split second of chute vent; which means it did between 280 and 320 damage. And 9 spanner hits to repair a split second of hydrogen (320-360 damage). This could be that the item activates for a minimum of 1 second, plus an additional 3 seconds after it's turned off. Although that still comes to 260 and 300 damage for chute vent and hydro respectively, so somethings not adding up. Maybe those are old numbers in the tool description and they've been updated? Kerosene and moonshine won't even damage the engines if they're only turned on for a split second (at least not enough for the damage meter to show up, which can happen on occasion).


Ship Stats

ShipArmorHealthSpeed (m/s)Acceleration (m/s2)Turn Speed (degrees/s)Turn Accel. (degrees/s2)Vertical Speed (m/s)Vertical Accel. (m/s2)Mass (tonnes)Goldfish400110040.113.513.997.9916.993.25150Junker70050026.014.316.1815.2417.063.00125Squid23085047.005.5018.9520.0017.004.00115Pyramidion65070032.002.5011.006.2516.972.75200Galleon800140030.022.108.025.0617.012.25320Spire40075025.993.0011.9915.0217.003.75150Mobula60070028.004.2514.023.517.017.5120

Here's the ship stats just for reference (commandeered from my Squidsassin Guide). Green is top in that category, Red is worst. Blue is 2nd best, Orange is 2nd worst.


The big thing to note is the vertical speed and more importantly the acceleration. All the ships have roughly the same vertical speed, but their accelerations vary dramatically. This means the tool has a harder time showing noticeable results for the larger ships, but very noticeable results for the lighter ships. Not every ship is going to skyrocket upwards like the squid and mobula. I'm not asking for the tools to be powered up, just less destructive. You can use them for all the uppercutting, fleeing, and shooting above your enemies all you want currently. The reason players don't do that as much is because it's not very effective on most ships. I use hydro on my pyramidion occasionally, and the ship feels only slightly improved. Where if I use it on my squid, I rise and fall quite rapidly.

Long story short is that only some ships shoot up and down rapidly, while the other ships will experience a much less dramatic change in altitude. It's the ships that need to change altitude rapidly and frequently that suffer the most; as the other ships tend not to use these tools. There should be no reason to punish ships and playstyles that focus on vertical motion.


There is a high risk/high reward concept in a lot of aspects of this game; but then you have to turn your attention back to the other tools on the list. The risk/reward just isn't there in any of them but moonshine, who's damage is about on par with the balloon items, except it's under a lot more control (I see no reason that you shouldn't be able to use the balloon tools precisely). Kerosene can pretty much be left on all the time, and the same is almost true for the phoenix claw. Ships that turn slowly can keep up with even the squid if they use phoenix claw; I use it all the time when taking out maneuverable ships that try to slip around me. Kerosene on the other hand can also be used for ramming far more effectively than bumpers. It increases your speed -and- keeps you from rotating. I've used it to great effect, sometimes even flipping enemy ships 180 degrees if they weren't also using kerosene. It's become standard.


I realize I'm biased in my desire for chute vent and hydrogen to get some love, but there's also a lot of valid points in doing so. I'm also aware that there is a strong bias against such a change, as a lot of current builds and playstyles focus on naval ship combat, where players want their enemies to stay at roughly the same altitude as them. (Which I will henceforth refer to as a Khanian mentality)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VkhuWD9S73Q
 ((Actually quite an effective maneuver in GoIO too))

redria:
Let's piece this together then.
As a young learning pilot most people avoid using tools, because it will damage your ship.
Next they will start using phoenix claw for short periods to get that quick turn, and they will like it and keep it around.
Next they may try kerosene or tar barrel after seeing someone else use it effectively.
The last thing a newer player will try doing regularly is use vertical tools. This is due primarily to 2 factors: the damage levels attached, and a Khanian mentality. It seems silly to wreck your own balloon to lose your own gun arcs, and most beginner builds tend towards guns with mostly straight forwards arcs (see: metamidion). This isn't to say being above someone doesn't work with these guns, just that it feels more natural to just get them at the same level.

For newer players the current stats keep most of the fighting on a Khanian level. This helps newer players get accustomed to the game, gunners get a chance to shoot regularly, pilots aren't thinking too hard about where an enemy ship is, everything is just on the table in front of them.

With more experienced players, we know how to use the vertical tools pretty effectively, to the point where not having a counter to the vertical tools will get you locked down pretty regularly. We are willing to use tools to get out of the plane of combat and make repairs/get in a better position. However, as you mention, it has a much greater effect on the ships with less mass. Something like a squid will rocket upwards, while a pyramidion moves more slowly. (I disagree that you barely notice hydrogen in a pyra - I usually feel like I'm soaring, but then I never play anything else, so any change is big) The way things currently are, there is no way a pyramidion could keep up and keep arcs with a rising squid unless the pyramidion anticipates it quickly and rises while using hydrogen. The pyra pilot knows the squid can't use too much hydrogen or risk losing its maneuverability, so he knows he has one shot to keep guns on the squid for the first pass. In response a squid could drop down under the pyra and take advantage of the lag time associated with using the tool.

Now let's make the tools not have a lag period and give them repairable damage.

In novice matches, I am envisioning these being some of the first tools used regularly, leading to matches where the gunners and gun loadouts are still set for a Khanian match, but the pilots are bobbing their ships up and down so much trying to dodge bullets that the gunners never get to shoot, and the engineers are only ever on the balloons.
Squids and mobulas quickly become the only close range ships as their ability to move up and down lets them keep out of the gun arcs of every other ship at close range.
The only way to counter this is to go long range and try to snipe from a position where you have arcs no matter what height your enemy is at.
The game becomes slower because now that the vertical evasion tool is a viable option for consistent use during a match, the pilot will focus more on dodging bullets than on directing appropriate fire. Anyone not using the tools will be left with no gun arcs because they can simply never maintain gun arcs.
Pilots bring both vertical tools to give themselves precise control over their vertical movement. This leaves them with one slot left: phoenix claw so they can quickly turn on enemies, or kerosene. Without using both kerosene and phoenix claw, pilots will lose the bravery to charge in knowing they can quickly recover from mistakes. The game begins to move away from CQC entirely as pilots and crews focus their attentions on defeating vertical motion.

Um. Maybe that is a little drastic. My point being, currently the squid is in a tough spot right now as the nimble ship. You can't make it too nimble, or it becomes overpowered. Too nimble and even the best pilots won't be able to prevent a squid sitting in behind them. As they are though, a good pilot can always get a squid in arcs (except maybe on galleon?) and take it out. Squids are the only ship I see needing better vertical motion.

As a side note, I actually like the tools having a lag timer. I can pop hydrogen then use phoenix claw for a super fast recovery by turning faster and rising faster at the same time. It sort of makes these tools a little bit more powerful if you ask me.

Long story short, the game plays in a semi-Khanian mindset, and the tools are designed to allow you to maneuver best within this mindset. The vertical tools give strategic thinkers the potential to (sorry) "rise above" such a mindset, but the game is trying to push you to engage an enemy at an altitude somewhat comparable to your own. This is why there are no guns that default point straight up or down. Buff the vertical tools and you make a game set in a semi-Khanian mindeset that can only be played by thinking anti-Khanian. If you can only play a game effectively by using strategies counter to how the devs designed the game, something is wrong. Squids do need a small buff to be more viable in higher level play, but this isn't the answer. At least not to me.

*edit* I love the term Khanian too, and I used it liberally. I hope you don't mind.  :)

Crafeksterty:
We know how to use chute vent and Hydrogine and moonshine people. Burst. We know.

But were not using them OFTEN enough. Were not playing with them.



Pheonix claw is easily used almost everytime. On a mobula. I use it all the time whenever im doing what is considered a hard turn for the mobula. For the spire, i use pheonix when switching split targets or turns that are 90 angle. And that is alot.


Now place that in perspective with tools such as TAR, or MOONSHINE, KYROSINE and PHEONIX. Vent and Hydro are VERY bursty. Which i think in design it actually fits but its not being played with. I just wonder how the game plays out when you play with the vertical meneuvering as much as people play with turns and speed.

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