The only mid-join as engineer philosophy

[ramjamslam]

FYI: this is not gunner vs. engineer balance talk.  The philosophy here is that mid game crew slots are filled with engineers only.

Mid joining double (and triple) gunners and mid joining as a second pilot causes a lot of conflict between players.  Many people I ask to change to engineer through Abandon Match and rejoin through match list actually do but I would prefer if they didn't have to go through the effort.  I have seen captains take double gunner builds but it is rare.

What I am suggesting is that after a match has started the damage dealing aspect (i.e. gunner) has been worked out as AI engineers are repair focused under F1 and everyone that joins while the match is already under way should fill in as engineers.

Lobbies are where you strategise: pick your class, pick your loadout.  Currently part of the lobby strategy includes expecting mid joining pilots and second gunners which cause unneeded conflict between crew members in game.  I want people to be able to assemble whatever build they want in the lobby, allowing for welcome engineer midjoiners.  Currently players are apprehensive of allowing mid joiners because of the propensity of double gunner and double pilots which disable a ships functionality more than anything else.

A mid game joining second gunner or second pilot has not caused anything other than stress for the existing engineer and aggression and blame from the captain.  GoIO would be a happier, more friendlier place if we Muse didn't allow mid joining double gunners and pilots in order to reduce unnecessary conflict between players.

[Wundsalz]

I agree with ramjams discussion.
I'd like muse to introduce the following late-join restrictions:
- disallow late joining pilots for other slots than the captain slot.
- disallow late joining gunners if there's already a gunner on the ship. Alternatively fix the engineer-gunner balance so 2gunner/1engie crews actually become a viable option.

They simply can't be a good addition to the team. If a 2nd gunner happens to join my ship while I'm on the steering wheel, I tend to either rant at him or elaborate why it's better to join as an engineer midgame - depending on my mood and the late joining players level. lvl6+ gunners  and late joining pilots always get yelled at. The former because I expect him to have played 100+ matches and assume that he should know better and the latter as I think it's rather obvious and intuitive that only one guy can steer the ship at a time.
Either way none of these scenarios is pleasant for anyone - neither the existing crew and team nor the new addition.

[RearAdmiralZill]

I'd like muse to introduce the following late-join restrictions:
- disallow late joining pilots for other slots than the captain slot.
- disallow late joining gunners if there's already a gunner on the ship. Alternatively fix the engineer-gunner balance so 2gunner/1engie crews actually become a viable option.

If a boat has no pilot, it honestly needs one. The spot is less of a worry cause the guy commanding can still manage to coordinate with the late pilot for ai reasons. The slot restriction isn't needed, though the numerical limit is.

The two gunner not being viable "issue" is more because of just how damage works in Guns. Too often do you need a reliable repair source in two places at once, and the engie does do that much better then a gunner. That said, a gunner shouldn't be able to join mid-game if there is one already for the obvious reasons.

lvl6+ gunners  and late joining pilots always get yelled at.

Ever since the achievements got easier to obtain (I forget which patch) I've been less trusting of anything under 11. Those ranks mean so little at this point, that only match # really gives a good indicator.

[Thomas]

I could not encourage this more than I already do. Regrettably, players on the forums are pretty well tuned into the idea of not joining as a pilot/gunner unless there is one who is missing. What you run into is players who don't check the forums and tend to be fairly new who join as redundant roles. Some of them aren't aware you can change role without actually choosing a slot (while you're looking at the lobby of an active match). Other times it's just the quick join, which is being removed.

All I can add is for everyone to try and keep their cool and calmly explain the situation to someone who joins as a second/third gunner/pilot. I know this can be difficult, we've all been there; but it often works better than straight up flipping out on them.

[redria]

Honestly... And I know I'm weird... I'm against this.
As an experienced pilot, if I ready up with an AI slot on my crew, I am readying up knowing that I risk getting another gunner or pilot, or even an engineer who only wants to shoot guns. If I am not comfortable with this scenario, I will leave and find a new lobby with people who are willing to wait for me to get a full crew. Otherwise, I will customize my ship to handle the possibility of having the less than optimal crew and see what I can do.
Flying organized experienced crews alongside organized ships is going to hand you a victory unless you are facing similarly organized and experienced opponents. This can be fun, but nowhere near as fun as taking a late join second pilot, sticking them on one of your guns, and carrying a helpless teammate to a 5-4 victory. After the match, talk to your crew about how they should try to only join as engineer then switch accordingly. If I ready up, I am accepting the challenge to carry an interesting crew to victory.

For less experienced pilots... this will do at least 2 things.
It will teach them to not ready up with AI, nor to pester people to ready up with AI.
They may eke out one of those special wins where they know they shouldn't have pulled through. The best way to get hooked on a game like this is to have those victories.

I cannot vouch for what this may do to newcomers to the game. It may be that the current joining system keeps our numbers low, and your proposed change would boost the number of players who stick around. But there is an upside to the current system that you shouldn't overlook. I am not saying that your opinion is wrong, simply pointing out that it isn't all downside. It just makes things interesting.

[HamsterIV]

I am all for this, but I wonder if there is anything in the code that would make this difficult to implement while allowing a gunner who got left the match to rejoin in his old spot.

[N-Sunderland]

I am all for this, but I wonder if there is anything in the code that would make this difficult to implement while allowing a gunner who got left the match to rejoin in his old spot.

As long as they do it within the rejoin window I don't see there being an issue.

[Richard LeMoon]

I would love a feature that would allow people to join in progress ONLY if they have the class/loadout that the captain sets (optional to set, of course). Click a slot to join, see a pop-up that says:

Captain desires that you bring this:

[list class and stuff]"

OK, I'll do it!
No thanks... Return to Lobby

I think this, more than anything, would shorten lobby times when there are a few empty slots. No one likes waiting for a match to fill when everyone is basically ready to go. [/list]

[Captain Smollett]

I agree with ramjams discussion.
I'd like muse to introduce the following late-join restrictions:
- disallow late joining pilots for other slots than the captain slot.
- disallow late joining gunners if there's already a gunner on the ship. Alternatively fix the engineer-gunner balance so 2gunner/1engie crews actually become a viable option.

This but instead of only allowing a pilot join the captain slot, change it to only allowing a pilot to join if there is no pilot.  Sometimes I'm in a good mood and join grease monkey captained pilotless ships to turn around and save games mid match.

[Oliver Colt]

I would love a feature that would allow people to join in progress ONLY if they have the class/loadout that the captain sets (optional to set, of course). Click a slot to join, see a pop-up that says:

Captain desires that you bring this:

[list class and stuff]"

OK, I'll do it!
No thanks... Return to Lobby

I think this, more than anything, would shorten lobby times when there are a few empty slots. No one likes waiting for a match to fill when everyone is basically ready to go. [/list]

I like this idea, it gives the captain a better way to get through what they want and just gives them more of a captain feel overall, since the crew has to stick to their rules to get in their ship.

Of course it should allow the captain to modify this at any point before the match, just like the ship and their loadout, in case someone in the crew has suggestions/is better with something else and whatnot, so communication wouldn't be lost, it'd just make it easier when usually there's little or none (like when a crew member is simply not listening to their captain).

[The Sky Wolf]

Mid-match the captain should be notified when a player (with name, rank and job title listed) is requesting permission to come aboard, and the captain should be able to either accept or decline.

Such a feature should stay away from the lobby to generally eliminate any possible form of public discrimination for whatever reason, but mid match is a very sensitive and crucial time for any captain; especially if he finally just then got the hang of commanding AI effectively. For 2 first-time powder monkeys to jump in suddenly, it's often just so needlessly devastating to the crew & team that I believe allowing mid-match boarding must be optional.

[The Sky Wolf]

Mid-match the captain should be notified when a player (with name, rank and job title listed) is requesting permission to come aboard, and the captain should be able to either accept or decline.

Such a feature should stay away from the lobby to generally eliminate any possible form of public discrimination for whatever reason, but mid match is a very sensitive and crucial time for any captain; especially if he finally just then got the hang of commanding AI effectively. For 2 first-time powder monkeys to jump in suddenly it's often so needlessly devastating to the crew & team that I believe allowing mid-match boarding must be optional.

[Mizhir Starsurge]

I would love a feature that would allow people to join in progress ONLY if they have the class/loadout that the captain sets (optional to set, of course). Click a slot to join, see a pop-up that says:

Captain desires that you bring this:

[list class and stuff]"

OK, I'll do it!
No thanks... Return to Lobby

I think this, more than anything, would shorten lobby times when there are a few empty slots. No one likes waiting for a match to fill when everyone is basically ready to go. [/list]

A feature like this would be really sweet. It would also make it easier in the lobbies as the captain can just use the feature to make the crew pick the right loadout or leave.

I'm tired of having to tell it over and over to some people who refuses to listen. I don't mind new players who still don't know the optimal loadouts. But I really hate it when people refuses to listen.

[ramjamslam]

I'm personally not really interested in captains being able to reject crew, I just want to see a reduction in the amount people rage at new players for joining as second pilot or gunner.  You would get a lot more "Hey, thanks for joining!" instead of newbie hate if players were only allowed to midjoin as engineer.

As a midjoiner you are joining as support to an existing team, to me that means you should be joining as an engineer.

[Ariden]

Adding onto this I'd like to suggest a flexibler option for the spectators to be able to join the matches... perhaps while they are spectating a button that says 'Join match!' and below it (__ spots available). When the press the button they see the spots that are available and can click on any one of these they chose.

Also I agree with Mr. LeMoon, however I think that sometimes the previous captain that held this ship is a lower level and still doesn't know how to manage the piloting skills. Most of the times this occurs because it is more common among the lower level captains to leave the game. It is therefore more advantageous to take your own piloting skills according to your preference, unless the previous captain was a higher level that did know how to correctly choose his piloting skills.