Main > Gameplay
Artemis
The Djinn:
--- Quote from: Sammy B. T. on December 23, 2013, 02:53:09 pm ---In a thread where people are discussing whether a gun or build is over powered, claims that it is not over powered aren't off topic.
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Entirely true.
--- Quote ---The gun is balanced, "tuning it" would be an imbalance to the gun.
--- End quote ---
I would say the issue is more complex than this:
Is the gun relatively balanced in high-level play against opponents who are prepared and aware of existing options for counterplay against the Artemis? I would say yes, this is the case. But unfortunately this isn't the entirety of the issue.
Is the gun relatively balanced in all levels of play such that any given ship crewed by an average crew has a decent chance at victory? I would say the answer to this is a no: when matched against players who have not mastered the art of counterplaying the Artemis, I think the gun is to effective for the amount of skill required to get basically functionality out of the gun. In other words the skill ceiling is fine (when mastered the gun is powerful, but opponents with equal mastery can outplay it), but the skill floor is to low (e.g. the gun is too easy to use for the devastation it can wreck on unorganized or relatively inexperienced teams, even when used by inexperienced players).
So I don't think it needs a nerf so much as it needs some tuning to make it a little easier for less experienced players to handle. This could be a reduction in its ability to aim downward (preserving damage, missile speed, and horizontal arc at the expense of requiring more careful piloting for full effectiveness), reducing horizontal arc (requiring more piloting skill to achieve the desired trifecta), turning speed (requiring more awareness of ship movements from the gunners), or even reducing the splash radius (rewarding precision shots over blanket damage).
All of these changes are, of course, purely hypothetical. The idea is not to take raw power away from the gun, but instead raise the amount of skill needed to reliably get the full effect from the weapon. Tweaking the missile speed/gun arcs/turning speed all accomplish this without significantly reducing the guns deadliness in skill hands.
Would it be a nerf? Yes, ultimately. But a relatively small one and, if the gun can be tweaked to require a bit more skill to use effectively, then perhaps that effective use could receive an equally small buff in exchange.
A NOTE TO SKILLED ARTEMIS USERS: I am not saying the gun is easy to use, nor disparaging the skills that you definitely have with firing the weapon and positioning your ship to take advantage of the gun's power. I am, however, saying that it is one of the guns in Guns of Icarus that is the easiest to get powerful, hard-to-counter results with at low levels of play, which means that the skill floor is to low for a gun that also has such a high skill ceiling. Something like the Gatling is easy to use...but doesn't really have the same level of mastery. Something like the Lumberjack is hard to use...and amazing when mastered. The Artemis currently just has the best of both worlds, which I think is where the issue lies (in my mind).
Byron Cavendish:
That brings up an entirely different issue though: is this a casual game played competitively, or a competitive game played casually? You cannot have both (although I know they want to), and the answer determines this issue, and many others.
I have always been under the believe that in this game not all ships are created, and not all guns are created equal. This game is not, and should not, be trying to balance all weapons to the same level. Some ships and some guns are harder to use, and yield better results. The squid and the lumberjack are the most dramatic examples; in the hands of the most skilled they yield the best results, but new players beware.
I think there would be a great travesty if we lost these nuances to builds. You simply cannot create equal balance in this game while having such dramatic differences in ships and guns. And how boring would that be if we did?
So to reply to your post, should we be balancing this game around the low skill level of new players? Because that would get silly fast.
The Djinn:
Those are some very good points, Byron, and they hint at what (I feel) is a much better discussion to be having than "is the Artemis overpowered." I have a response in mind, but you'll have to wait until later tonight, as I'm trying this from my phone during my dinner break.
Crafeksterty:
--- Quote ---Is the gun relatively balanced in all levels of play such that any given ship crewed by an average crew has a decent chance at victory? I would say the answer to this is a no:
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Could not have said it better.
Byron, if you would put 2 junkers with tripple art versus 2 other junkers with tripple art... The game would be the biggest bore in every direction. And imbalanced to the point of the person that moves has a grand chance of being the person that loses.
Different build combinations even sniper (but no artemis) are still very varying and actualy play a balanced ish role. Gat mort build versus another gat mort build very much depends on the position that the ships are in rather than simply getting hits in. 2 artemis junkers shooting each other will be in the highest possible position and the first one to disable wins. Then the game will only be better with the other 2 guns that arent artemis which atleast one of the junkers will resort to to combat the artemis. However the first junker is just gonna stay at their artemis side anyway.
It is a damn problem. The gun isnt anything too powerfull yett 3 of them coming from only 1 ship is alot. Not to mention 2 ships. Heck it even beats having mercury which should give a window for killing much easier. Then the junker is also very hard to hit from afar to its hull so a counter artemis is more difficult than you think.
Two spires with full art and a lumberjack should be more brutal and ive said that dozens of times. Spires with lumberjack and tri art can be too much. But it is more balanced than a junker because of the largeness of the spire and its squishyness. Basically a trade to being very tanky and hard to hit. Whie the junker trades away (in comparison) just a heavy gun.
In order to beat tri artemis, you need a good map, or counter for whatever build you have to win versus artemis build. If artemis can be with junkers on every map versus any build. Giving difficulties to the other team with any build on every map. There then is an imbalance.
Why choose something else?
Alistair MacBain:
But thats just not true crafeksterty ...
One single merc can make the difference in a artemis fight.
We had this in many scrims between our teams.
A mobula with a 2x artemis+merc will make the difference at killing speed if you dont get the permanent disable on the enemy.
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