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Artemis
Squidslinger Gilder:
--- Quote from: Chrinus on December 12, 2013, 09:41:52 am ---I'd just like to mention that if we destroy the arcs on this weapon, we throw the Mobula yet again into the same position as the old spire. She needs those defenses to survive long enough as it is. I'm not saying it's a bad idea, but watch how far toned down it goes: if they cant bifect their sides at long range you kill the most competitively viable Mobula build.
--- End quote ---
Thats because Muse needs to fix the ship, not fix the guns so that a terrible ship is usable. They said they were working on this.
Byron Cavendish:
Well they nerfed the mobula's bottom two arcs in the dev app when we were using three mercs on it. Then they nerfed the arcs on the merc anyway, so ya, there's that...
This is what I'm afraid of now with the artemis and all this whining, making another gun and/or ship un-usable, or un-competitive.
Frogger:
To be honest, I feel like the difficulties that teams opposing triple artemis junkers face are rather due to their own poor tactics rather than some inherent overpoweredness of the build. I may come to regret these words, of course. :)
The concern that I am detecting here is that on the PUG level, where anti-artemis tactics are less known, the slow, grinding, helpless deaths so frequently incurred by triple artemis builds cannot help but cause a lot of frustration for newer players. It's this fact that may be the eventual undoing of the artemis in its current state. I have no doubt that the Gents have fine-tuned the build to a high level of refinement (even simple things can be done well and taken to the next level; gat-mortar is another example), but it's also true that a moderately experienced pub captain can put three noobs with burst on those suckers and cause a lot of frustration, in a much different way than something like gat-mortar, where your armor just drops and you blow up without any prolonged maiming. That may be part of what's fueling the frustration here.
As awkm stated in his discussion of changing the reload dynamic, waiting is the worst for gameplay dynamics - and helplessly waiting for your ship to explode is likely the worst of the worst :)
Thomas:
The change of a single gun should not overtly affect the performance of any ship. If it's arc would be reduced, it depends on how drastic the change is. Right now it has 65/65 for left and right, and 10/35 for up and down (angles in degrees). The field gun has 15/15 for Left/right and 15/5 for up/down. That's a pretty big difference between the two.
Even if they cut the left/right in half, you'd still have a greater turning arc than the field gun.
For the mobula, the far right gun appears to be about 35 degrees off forward facing. Which means you'd need at least that much to point it forward, although you'd need a little more than that to hit things directly ahead of the ship (since the gun is off center). The bottom deck guns are angled just a tad less, maybe around 30 or so? So you'll have an easier time shooting forward and even scoring hits at enemies directly ahead.
Personally I think chopping it to somewhere around 45-35 for left and right, along with reducing the downward to 25-30. This still allows for the spread out mobula guns to hit a center forward target (and thus not really affecting it on this ship), but makes it harder on the junker. The junker side guns are 90 degrees from facing forward, and not centered with each other. While the front gun points directly forward. Around 35 it would be difficult to impossible to score a trifecta, but nearing 45 it's still difficult, but you generally hit the same ship. (You need something with more than 45 left/right degrees to get something approaching an effective trifecta)
At the very least getting 3 on a single target would be difficult on anything except a mobula, and that's probably fair considering the mobility weaknesses of the mobula (it actually has the best vertical acceleration of any ship, one of the best forward accelerations (average top speed), with an average turn speed and slow turning acceleration) and massive blind spot.
I'm sure there's a whole 'nother discussion about the weaknesses and strengths about each ship, but a single gun change shouldn't overtly reduce the effectiveness of any ship. Of course this idea is to reduce the ability to get this gun into a trifecta on most ships, making it easier to approach the ship / requiring more teamwork to use. There's plenty of other viable options that don't include carrying only artemis.
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Overall changing any gun is going to affect both the public games and the competitive scene, but allowing a weapon choice or combo to absolutely dominate in -either- of those is a bad thing. Making a little more difficult to use doesn't greatly affect the competitive play (I've done some 'silly' matches with high skilled clans and they've shown ability to use seemingly poor weapon choices to great affect), but should have a greater effect on the pub matches, where the greatest concern for this weapons abuse is.
Byron Cavendish:
You know, there's always talk about balance, and it usually equates to changing something negatively. Has anyone ever considered an overall better balance change? What if instead of reducing the artemis arcs, a lot of the existing gun arcs were improved? More options, more builds. To me that sounds a whole lot more interesting than just punishing yet another build so people feel comfortable gat/mortaring until the end of time.
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