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Harpoon gun discussion
Serenum:
--- Quote from: Thomas on November 07, 2013, 05:53:56 pm ---Hm, maybe we should have some kind of tournament based around the harpoon. Just to see what teams can do when they actually (hopefully) try to make good use of it.
--- End quote ---
What would that accomplish?
I have actually tried to make good use of the harpoon. Other people have. In fact I would say anyone that has tried the harpoon even once has.
If a weapon is viable only in the hands of an elite few it's NOT a good weapon and most important it's awful design.
The situation is so clear that there is no need for further tests and proofs, the harpoon needs to be changed, period.
Thomas:
--- Quote from: Serenum on November 08, 2013, 04:45:20 am ---
--- Quote from: Thomas on November 07, 2013, 05:53:56 pm ---Hm, maybe we should have some kind of tournament based around the harpoon. Just to see what teams can do when they actually (hopefully) try to make good use of it.
--- End quote ---
What would that accomplish?
I have actually tried to make good use of the harpoon. Other people have. In fact I would say anyone that has tried the harpoon even once has.
If a weapon is viable only in the hands of an elite few it's NOT a good weapon and most important it's awful design.
The situation is so clear that there is no need for further tests and proofs, the harpoon needs to be changed, period.
--- End quote ---
It's just that it's such a unique weapon in the game, not relying on direct damage at all; but instead creating a link between ships, pulling them together and making it difficult to fly.
I'm sure everyone has 'tried' the harpoon at some point, but I don't think anyone has put serious effort into it; actually attempting to make use of the weapon instead of just having it around for the achievement or chuckles. Doing it for the achievement isn't really trying to make good use of the weapon, since their trying to just make sure it hits before destroying the enemy as fast as possible, not caring about using the physics to their advantage.
No one takes it seriously. It's far from the easiest weapon to use, but that doesn't mean it's only effective in the hands of the elite. I think people just need to take more time to try and test ways to use it better, instead of asking for it to be changed because it's not used in the way they want it to be used.
A Harpoon-based tournament might encourage some of the more competitive to take time and test it out more, especially if it's use is required to win. It's no doubt a weapon that takes more crew coordination that other weapons. When do you use it? What ships do you hit with it? Where do you hit them with it? Can you use it so that their gun arcs stay off you or your ally longer? Can you use it so that your gun arcs are easier to keep on the enemy? Can you drag them into obstacles while avoiding those obstacles yourself?
A bad use of it might be sticking it on the front gun of a squid and harpooning the side of a galleon. Suddenly you're reeling yourself in right towards their guns. So you really do have to work with your crew, letting them know when to shoot and where to shoot; kind of like the flare gun: it's very situational, possibly being an advantage or disadvantage depending on how it's used.
Now if people do take it seriously and still can't make good use of it, then it might very well be an awful weapon. Needing to be changed or continued to be used for achievements only and occasions where players just want whacky all harpoon matches.
Serenum:
I assure you I did take it seriously and I've tried it before on a multitude of ships and situations.
Harpoon physics are quite simply broken and unpredictable and also counterintuitive, as I described in detail in the OP it's perfectly possible to have an harpooned ship pulling you to the right and yet being unable to turn your ship in that direction. Sometimes the harpoon rope looks like it acts like a solid, rigid pole connecting the two ships, preventing you from getting close or moving away from the harpooned ship. And so on.
But that's beyond the point.
What you don't seem to be getting is that a weapon that require so much effort in order to be even remotely useful is broken by default. This is a game, not a job, and it already has a steep learning curve. There is no justification for having a weapon such as the harpoon around to add frustration for new and experienced players alike.
No other weapon in this game is so hard to use and has so little benefits to it. Even the humble flare gun can at least be used to set fires on an enemy ship, aside from its more obvious role of countering clouds.
I honestly don't understand why would anyone try to justify the harpoon in its current form. Yeah it's good for shits and giggles once in a while when used in the occasional joke build, but aside from that? It's a pain in the ass.
And a tournament won't change that. The average player would still try the weapon, be frustrated by it and never use it again. Which goes back to my point that having an elite few mastering the weapon still dosen't mean that the weapon itself is fine.
I would even argue that IF such a tournament were to bring new life to the harpoon in the competitive scene it would make things even worse. Suddendly experienced players are harpooning ships left and right while the average player doesn't know how to react and is frustrated that he can't use it himself because let's be honest, most people don't have the dedication it takes to master even the basic weapons and builds, much less something like the harpoon.
I'm going to say this again.
There is nothing to argue here, no gray area. The proofs are right in front of us, nobody uses the harpoon. Just like the predominance of a weapon or combo in the public scene was enough to nerf the gat-mortar combo, the total absence of a weapon in said public games should be enought to warrant a redesign.
Thomas:
Queso mentioned pretty early in the thread that changes were in the works, but they don't have a very high priority; so it will change, but probably not immediately.
I still like to believe that even in it's current state (and yeah, the mechanics feel wonky) it can be a useful tool in the right hands. It takes a certain desire and playstyle to make use of it. Right now there is very little (basically no) desire from players to try and work with the weapon. It's just so much easier and straightforward to shoot them out of the sky.
An organized event based around the thing might show it does have some use, or (more likely) make it more apparent that it needs a fix. Right now it's relatively unused state, no one cares about it; which is one of the reasons it has such a low priority for being adjusted. And with such little input (since it's relatively unused) it's hard to say how to adjust it properly.
That's some reasons for having an organized event for it. Gathering data, player input, and raising awareness of the issue.
Captain Smollett:
--- Quote from: Thomas on November 08, 2013, 12:52:31 pm ---Queso mentioned pretty early in the thread that changes were in the works, but they don't have a very high priority; so it will change, but probably not immediately.
I still like to believe that even in it's current state (and yeah, the mechanics feel wonky) it can be a useful tool in the right hands. It takes a certain desire and playstyle to make use of it. Right now there is very little (basically no) desire from players to try and work with the weapon. It's just so much easier and straightforward to shoot them out of the sky.
An organized event based around the thing might show it does have some use, or (more likely) make it more apparent that it needs a fix. Right now it's relatively unused state, no one cares about it; which is one of the reasons it has such a low priority for being adjusted. And with such little input (since it's relatively unused) it's hard to say how to adjust it properly.
That's some reasons for having an organized event for it. Gathering data, player input, and raising awareness of the issue.
--- End quote ---
Well, the harpoon does currently have some good uses like on some very specific Galleon builds but most people (including Muse staff) believe it needs a buff. The rumor mill has it that the tow strength, piercing strength as well as an alternate fire controlling the reeling of the gun are all being looked into however the gun requires a lot of time and effort to alter thereby knocking it lower on the priority list.
Muse has stated it needs to be altered before adventure mode comes out but has been very vague on when it will change.
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