Please Make Gunners Useful

[The Djinn]

The problem comes to that:
-To control the boat, just click on the helm.
-To use a gun, just click on the gun.
-To repair a piece of equipment, just click on.... *OUCH* no, you can't.

That's actually fairly insightful. What if Engineering were based around, say, a single thing (like Gunning normal ammo, or a Pilot's ability to fly): Say a 100hp/5 second, 3 rebuild tool. Everyone gets this tool by default. Call it the Engineering Kit or something.

Then you get "modifications" that you can use. Everyone gets 1, Engineers get 3 (I'd switch Spyglass to an "everyone" tool here, and let people actually choose a piloting tool aside from that).

Fire Extinguisher: -70 repair per hit, -1 second cooldown, -1 rebuild, removes all fire stacks.
Chemical Treatment Kit: -60 repair per hit, -2 second cooldown, -1 rebuild, removes 3 fire stacks per use, prevents additional fire stacks for 30 seconds.
Quick Repair Kit: -60 repair per hit, -3 second cooldown, +2 rebuild.
Major Damage Kit: +125 repair per hit, +4 second cooldown, -1 rebuild.

...and so forth. An Engineer has flexibility above and beyond the average (due to a better selection of tools for the specific situation), while the Gunner and Pilot have the average baseline of Engineer repairing and a SINGLE addition to give them more flexibility in a specific direction. This flexibility might even allow for 2 gunner crews being competent at repairing and better at gunning, while 2 engineer crews are better at repairing and competent at gunning.

[Cid Ferringer]

But it would be really boring if the tools were just "buffs" instead of actual items..

That's why I don't really like the gunner having so much ammo and no actual tools or gadgets.
A scope, tracer muzzle, smoke screen bomb, flare gun, these are just a couple of things that could be added as gunnery items that would stack ontop of regular ammunition.

Don't forget that there's a huge difference between mallet/spanner and the wrench.
Engineers will still be as important even if gunners are given the same "baseline" It's will be like giving them a wrench and then having them choose spanner or mallet..
Since engineer is so situational, you need the main tools and be as effective as possible to deal with burst damage, a wrench and mallet isn't good enough even though it's better than just a wrench.

[geggis]

The problem comes to that:
-To control the boat, just click on the helm.
-To use a gun, just click on the gun.
-To repair a piece of equipment, just click on.... *OUCH* no, you can't.

That's actually fairly insightful.

That was my point earlier on with regards to the vanilla/standard ammo idea: engineers are inherently more useful because they can operate guns independently of their loadout, bring three engineering tools and one specialised ammo. Gunners have to bring spanner/wrench/mallett to even be able to repair and rebuild something, and whichever tool they choose sacrifices repair/rebuild power as well as the ability to buff and protect/extinguish.

I don't like the idea of gunners coming with some baseline engineering equipment because it's almost like giving them an extra 'secret' engineering slot. Yes, anyone can pilot, and yes, anyone can gun, but those activities don't require tools to operate like engineering does. To fly you spin the wheel and adjust the throttle. To gun you hold the thing and pull the trigger. Engineering is all about the tools hence why you need them to do the job. The point of the vanilla/standard ammo idea is to alter the value of the ammo slot for the engineer without taking it away. You make a standard ammo type and suddenly engineers have to start making the same trade-offs with gunning as gunners do with engineering. You can take the wrench as a gunner, you can take the standard ammo as an engineer. You take a more specialised tool/ammo type and you take all the pitfalls that come with them.

Gunner tools could be really interesting though. My guess would be that Muse would go down this route as it would really bolster the gunner's role and force the dilemma above for engineers without creating standard/vanilla rounds.

[Ingenu]

The idea is for everyone to be able to repair/rebuild by simply clicking.
It's the equivalent of normal ammunition for guns, or standard control to pilot.
If anyone can rebuild/repair, each person can decide what bonus they want. (repair/rebuild/improve/...)

[Cheesy Crackers]

As long as it's not a squid. The pilot will most likely accept you as a gunner.
If not and you really cant find any games and tons of pilots are screaming at you to go engi buffgineer is the next best thing as it gives you more of a reason to stay on the guns.

[Captain Smollett]

As long as it's not a squid. The pilot will most likely accept you as a gunner.
If not and you really cant find any games and tons of pilots are screaming at you to go engi buffgineer is the next best thing as it gives you more of a reason to stay on the guns.

Gunner are kind of a liability on a mobula, I'd rather have one on a squid to be honest.

[Cheesy Crackers]

As long as it's not a squid. The pilot will most likely accept you as a gunner.
If not and you really cant find any games and tons of pilots are screaming at you to go engi buffgineer is the next best thing as it gives you more of a reason to stay on the guns.

Gunner are kind of a liability on a mobula, I'd rather have one on a squid to be honest.

Huh ok... Every pilot I've seen so far has a "no gunner" policy on squids
*EDIT* wait no I'm thinking of the wrong ship... My bad

[Gryphos]

Gunner are kind of a liability on a mobula, I'd rather have one on a squid to be honest.

Eh, you'd be surprised. Really it depends on what gun you have up top. If it's a gatling then all you really need is heavy, so an engi would be better. But if you've got something that you may want more than one ammo on, like a carronade or mortar, then I really don't think a gunner would be a bad idea. As for survivability, usually one engi can hold down their assigned side without need of much assistance. And the gunner can always bring a spanner to help with rebuilding the vital systems.

[Captain Smollett]

Let me rephrase that.  I don't want a gunner on my squid normally but I really don't want a gunner on my mobula ever.

[Alistair MacBain]

And i dont want a gunner on a metamidion ...

[Zenark]

I think the Mobula is the only ship I've liked having three engineers on, otherwise I like to have a gunner on all my ships.

[The Djinn]

I don't like the idea of gunners coming with some baseline engineering equipment because it's almost like giving them an extra 'secret' engineering slot.

Why would this be an issue? Assuming an Engineer takes the tool to make his repairing better (mallet equivalent) and the one to increase his repairing (spanner equivalent), he's left with a tool in the middle that isn't particularly useful to him except in very niche situations.

Meanwhile, having a "middle-of-the-road" tool as a default and being able to select a different tool for specialization drastically increases the effectiveness of the Gunner and Pilot as far as repairing and Engineering is concerned, without really making them step on the Engineer's toes all that much.

Gunner tools could be really interesting though. My guess would be that Muse would go down this route as it would really bolster the gunner's role and force the dilemma above for engineers without creating standard/vanilla rounds.

This would be cool, yes, but problematic for the following reason: it's almost always true that staying alive > killing power, as a ship that can stay alive will bring more killing power to bear over the course of a game. So unless we can tweak things so a 2-gunner ship isn't so easily torn apart when compared to a 2-engie ship, I think Engies will still dominate the class picks unless the Gunners tools make their damage output or part-breaking ability completely overpowered. My opinion though.

[Alistair MacBain]

Giving the gunner a wrench aquivalent and a tool he can choose wont change much on certain ships.
The advantage the gunner gives is just no advantage on some guns.
This guns would need a change to make gunners useful.
I still dont want a gunner on a mortar neither on a gatling. So why should i bring a gunner on a metamidion?
I rather have an engineer who can shoot his gun and rotate around when needed.

[Cid Ferringer]

So, if staying alive > killing power, then give the gunner something other than repairing that helps the ship survive..
- Smoke bombs: Removes all spotted targets for ship within the smoke.
- Tesla bombs: Disables any guns hit for x seconds.

[The Djinn]

I still dont want a gunner on a mortar neither on a gatling. So why should i bring a gunner on a metamidion?

Gatling I'll give you. Mortar benefits from greased, lesmok, and sometimes burst. Gunner may not be IDEAL, but he is still useful.