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Tweak Lochnager
Sprayer:
Lochnager:
Only one shot which deals 225% of the normal damage
No Recoil
-90% Turning speed
250 dmg to own gun
-60% arming time
-50% AoE
So the one shot clip reduces it's usefulness to four guns: Hellhound Heavy Twin Carronade, Typhoon Heavy Flak Cannon, Phobos Light Mine Launcher, Mercury Field Gun
While the reduced arming time gives it very limited use on all guns with arming time, that would add Lumberjack Heavy Mortar and Echidna Light Flak Cannon to the list.
Echidna:
Even under arming time range this gun deals more damage per second and per clip with standard ammo than with Lochnager, scratch it from the list.
Lumberjack:
Would only make sense on very short ranges on which the reduced turning speed and (after two shots with a repair in between) reduced reload time would make the gun useless, scratch too.
Hellhound:
Loch can be used alternating with Heavy Clip on ranges where other ammo would be useless. Here the damage increase per clip would be mere 25%, arguable wether that is worth or not to relinquish another ammo type. On close ranges Charged gives a boost of 30% per shot resulting in 260% damage of a single shot in the clip, does not loose turning speed nor damages the gun, so it is superior to Lochnager up close.
Mercury:
Other than on the Hellhound, here the rate of fire decrease of Charged has a serious impact on this gun. If another player is free to do repairs with the shooter, Loch might actually result in a higher damage per second than Charged. If not, fixing the gun would decrease the rate of fire with reload too much for Lochnager to be useful.
Typhoon:
When the enemy is too close for other ammo types, Lochnager enables the AoE damage to be applied and increases the damage of the shot, resulting in a single shot dealing more than double the damage that two shots under arming would deal. Though on ships that use the Typhoon usually are guns that allow to strip enemy ship's hulls from afar so it is arguable wether or not enemies even come into Lochnager distance without coming from a direction that is out of the Typhoons gunarc anyways.
Phobos:
The only gun in which Lochnager actually and definitly is "High Risk - High Reward". The Risk being even greater because the Lochnager mine arms with barely any distance from the ship. The Reward being that a single mine can strip all ships but the Galleon (which is left with 3% armor), even dealing hull damage to all ships with less than 500 armor (Spire, Goldfish, Squid). The reduced AoE allows for denser minefields without the mines setting one another up - on the other hand it makes it harder to make multiple mines explode to damage the same ship that triggered on mine. It also makes it harder to disable multiple components on enemy ships.
What I'm saying is, the Lochnager is described as a "High Risk - High Reward" ammo type. The way it is now it's inferior to other ammo types in most situations - the Phobos being the only exception. I'm not saying "buff Lochnager" since that would mean raising or changing a single statistic of the ammo type, it actually needs a lot more done before it becomes a viable ammotype.
Echoez:
--- Quote from: Sprayer on October 06, 2013, 08:14:00 am ---Lochnager:
Only one shot which deals 225% of the normal damage
No Recoil
-90% Turning speed
250 dmg to own gun
-60% arming time
-50% AoE
--- End quote ---
Having used this ammo type since 1.2 when I first started experimenting with it, you just pushed the correct buttons to bring me here. lol.
Okay, so yes, this is what Loch does. Let's continue.
--- Quote from: Sprayer on October 06, 2013, 08:14:00 am ---Echidna:
Even under arming time range this gun deals more damage per second and per clip with standard ammo than with Lochnager, scratch it from the list.
--- End quote ---
Agreed, fully.
--- Quote from: Sprayer on October 06, 2013, 08:14:00 am ---Lumberjack:
Would only make sense on very short ranges on which the reduced turning speed and (after two shots with a repair in between) reduced reload time would make the gun useless, scratch too.
--- End quote ---
Here is where the High Risk/Reward shows itself for the first time, you have an ammo type that sacrifices a lot in order to allow your gun to shoot at a very short range that would be impossible otherwise. This ammo type sacrifices DPM (per magazine, not minute) for Burst damage, you have to think wether you can finish the deal with the burst it gives you or wether it would be optimal to keep firing something else, if you can do it, it rewards you with a balloon insta-pop at near point blank ranges for this gun. Lochanagar is more than fine on the LJ.
--- Quote from: Sprayer on October 06, 2013, 08:14:00 am ---Hellhound:
Loch can be used alternating with Heavy Clip on ranges where other ammo would be useless. Here the damage increase per clip would be mere 25%, arguable wether that is worth or not to relinquish another ammo type. On close ranges Charged gives a boost of 30% per shot resulting in 260% damage of a single shot in the clip, does not loose turning speed nor damages the gun, so it is superior to Lochnager up close.
--- End quote ---
This is the only gun in which Loch was viable even back in 1.2, not only can it be used at max range with 0 recoil, it can be alternated with Heavy clip for an over all DPM increase, it delivers 2.25 shots in one and does so 1.2 seconds earlier than if you had to fire both, it saves you time, creates confusion due to the burst, can instakill balloons to spread confusion and generaly makes the gun MUCH faster. Charged is in absolutely NO way superior to Lochnagar, it's slower and much more inaccurate that you need to be VERY close if you want all pellets to hit the same spot, especially when dealing with ships like a Pyramidion's armored balloon or slim profile ships like the Junker.
Charged is an 'option' in no way superior, but can be considered if you want that close range prowess, which is still slower firing and in the race against the repair clock, I wonder if it's realy worth it.
--- Quote from: Sprayer on October 06, 2013, 08:14:00 am ---Mercury:
Other than on the Hellhound, here the rate of fire decrease of Charged has a serious impact on this gun. If another player is free to do repairs with the shooter, Loch might actually result in a higher damage per second than Charged. If not, fixing the gun would decrease the rate of fire with reload too much for Lochnager to be useful.
--- End quote ---
Again, Burst vs DPM, you could take down an armor that would have enough time to be repaired if you were using something else, especially since Charged makes the RoF of this gun much slower. A Lochnagar that couldn't kill light guns in one shot was tested and it was ridiculous on the Merc, Loch on Merc has a niche and works just fine.
--- Quote from: Sprayer on October 06, 2013, 08:14:00 am ---Typhoon:
When the enemy is too close for other ammo types, Lochnager enables the AoE damage to be applied and increases the damage of the shot, resulting in a single shot dealing more than double the damage that two shots under arming would deal. Though on ships that use the Typhoon usually are guns that allow to strip enemy ship's hulls from afar so it is arguable wether or not enemies even come into Lochnager distance without coming from a direction that is out of the Typhoons gunarc anyways.
--- End quote ---
Same deal as the Heavy Carronade, 2.25 shots in one, over all increases cycling efficiency, reduces arming time to get instakills where you previously couldn't, if it hits you don't have to worry about a second one hitting, it can get the kill just before the armor would go up (if you had two shots them the second would just hit on the armor instead of finishing the ship).
--- Quote from: Sprayer on October 06, 2013, 08:14:00 am ---Phobos:
The only gun in which Lochnager actually and definitly is "High Risk - High Reward". The Risk being even greater because the Lochnager mine arms with barely any distance from the ship. The Reward being that a single mine can strip all ships but the Galleon (which is left with 3% armor), even dealing hull damage to all ships with less than 500 armor (Spire, Goldfish, Squid). The reduced AoE allows for denser minefields without the mines setting one another up - on the other hand it makes it harder to make multiple mines explode to damage the same ship that triggered on mine. It also makes it harder to disable multiple components on enemy ships.
--- End quote ---
No objections here, Lochanagar working as intended, agreed.
--- Quote from: Sprayer on October 06, 2013, 08:14:00 am ---What I'm saying is, the Lochnager is described as a "High Risk - High Reward" ammo type. The way it is now it's inferior to other ammo types in most situations - the Phobos being the only exception. I'm not saying "buff Lochnager" since that would mean raising or changing a single statistic of the ammo type, it actually needs a lot more done before it becomes a viable ammotype.
--- End quote ---
What I'm saying is that this ammo type is very useful on 3/4 of the Heavy guns and can be used on at least 2 other light guns, that's 5 guns total. I don't see your point, the ammo type IS high risk/reward, it even damages yoru weapon to make it even more obvious and it works as intended in many guns. The whole point of it is 'Burst damage NOW and HERE' or you keep loading something else and keep your 'Overall damage'
I agree that in 1.2 where it was only viable on the Hellhound and somewhat the Mercury it needed changes, but now it's viable on at least 5 guns, that's mighty fine.
TL;DR (just for you!): Lochanagar emphasizes on Burst damage versus Overall damage of a magazine, utilizing it correctly is a high risk move that can nail high rewards on most guns mentioned here except the Light Flak.
EDIT: Here is a tweak, well, 'addition' I wanna see though, can we make Lochanagar create a special effect when you fire it so your gun can shoot an actual bomb with a fuse on it? Would be awesome.
Sprayer:
--- Quote from: Echoez on October 06, 2013, 09:00:16 am ---Here is where the High Risk/Reward shows itself for the first time, you have an ammo type that sacrifices a lot in order to allow your gun to shoot at a very short range that would be impossible otherwise. This ammo type sacrifices DPM (per magazine, not minute) for Burst damage, you have to think wether you can finish the deal with the burst it gives you or wether it would be optimal to keep firing something else, if you can do it, it rewards you with a balloon insta-pop at near point blank ranges for this gun. Lochanagar is more than fine on the LJ.
--- End quote ---
The Problem here is the reduced AoE. Usually it is enough to hit the enemy ship relatively close to the bloon to pop it. With Loch you need to aim carefully which is more difficult with the very low turning speed on distances where greased/heatsink/incendiary are under arming. The risks here are a (higly) increased chance to miss, vulnerability of the gun and the reward is just a popped bloon. Also I tried this a few times and never actually popped a bloon with just one hit. I believe some of the numbers I have here are wrong... (1200 bloon hp, 1,8 flechette mod on bloon, 2,25 mod on loch, LJ deals 50 shatter direct and 300 flechette AoE, someone correct what's wrong please)
--- Quote from: Echoez on October 06, 2013, 09:00:16 am ---This is the only gun in which Loch was viable even back in 1.2, not only can it be used at max range with 0 recoil, it can be alternated with Heavy clip for an over all DPM increase, it delivers 2.25 shots in one and does so 1.2 seconds earlier than if you had to fire both, it saves you time, creates confusion due to the burst, can instakill balloons to spread confusion and generaly makes the gun MUCH faster. Charged is in absolutely NO way superior to Lochnagar, it's slower and much more inaccurate that you need to be VERY close if you want all pellets to hit the same spot, especially when dealing with ships like a Pyramidion's armored balloon or slim profile ships like the Junker.
Charged is an 'option' in no way superior, but can be considered if you want that close range prowess, which is still slower firing and in the race against the repair clock, I wonder if it's realy worth it.
--- End quote ---
As I said, alternating with heavy on range is an option. But once the enemy bloon was popped, you don't need all pellets to hit it to pop it again anymore. Also I believe you underestimate the effective range of ammo that spreads on the Hellhound, with the blenderfish I usually get one more clip (one as soon as in range, one on approach so two all in all) emptied on the enemy before I switch to ammo other than heavy clip. I wouldn't bring an ammotype I can only make effective use of once per engagement.
--- Quote from: Echoez on October 06, 2013, 09:00:16 am ---Again, Burst vs DPM, you could take down an armor that would have enough time to be repaired if you were using something else, especially since Charged makes the RoF of this gun much slower. A Lochnagar that couldn't kill light guns in one shot was tested and it was ridiculous on the Merc, Loch on Merc has a niche and works just fine.
--- End quote ---
Standard Mercury rounds already deal enough damage to oneshot all components but Armor and Bloons. As it is impossible or very hard to know the current state of other ships Armor condition, how would you make the decision wether to use loch for high one time damage or charged which deals more damage when the long range engagement lasts longer than just one shot? Which one would you tell your engineers to bring?
--- Quote from: Echoez on October 06, 2013, 09:00:16 am ---Same deal as the Heavy Carronade, 2.25 shots in one, over all increases cycling efficiency, reduces arming time to get instakills where you previously couldn't, if it hits you don't have to worry about a second one hitting, it can get the kill just before the armor would go up (if you had two shots them the second would just hit on the armor instead of finishing the ship).
--- End quote ---
Agreed, I must admit to never actually have used Lochnager on the Typhoon. This is just hard to pull off with timing, load Loch too early (as you can't know when or if your supporting gunners strip the enemy) and your pilot has to aim for you, load it too late and you miss the window of opportunity. This said Loch seems valid on the Typhoon to me now. Thanks for opening my eyes on that.
Please stop refering to a version for which I wasn't even around to play >.>
N-Sunderland:
I can confirm that loch lumber does in fact one-shot balloons. Are you sure the hit landed at the right spot? As you said, reduced AoE makes it a bit tougher.
(and the numbers you have are correct, by the way)
Echoez:
Alright alright, I'm sorry for that here's the info on it back in 1.2, since that's all that matters atm:
+150% damage (250% total damage)
No rotation
No spread
175 damage to own gun
-20% projectile speed (didn't work on Raycast weapons back then)
I don't remember if there was an actual AoE reduction back in 1.2 but generaly that's what it looked like. Of course back then it was the only ammo type that granted 'perfect' accuracy aka no spread. (Heavy was only 80% spread reduction, not 100%)
To keep the rest short, yes, it works on the LJ, it allows shots well within its arming time with a full speed projectile, high risk, but if hit, the enemy's balloon will be in ruins and gives your ship a chance to adjust.
I probably do underestimate it, that's just because of my strategy with it (note that I don't only use Loch and Heavy), but it's not the spread only that's my problem, the cycling rate is, it's all about how fast I can unload the first two clips or so, also Charged might deliver slightly higher overall damage, but does so in 2 slower chunks, Lochnagar pushes the whole thing into the enemy ship at once.
With the now slower reload of the Carronade, this 1.2 seconds between shots that Lochanagar saves you from is a great deal of time, besides if you are close enough to use Charged, use Incediary, two shots and the hull will be on at least 15 stacks, plus anything else that gets caught on fire, lots of panic I assure you. In this case, Lochanagar again trades over all magazine damage for speed and you don't realy have to use it only once, it also helps get more damage into the hull faster, just like the Flak.
As for the Mercury you brought up the magical word 'Engineers', well, Lochanagar is mainly a gunner ammo, unless you are bringing mines and you have a specific strategy to use them with Loch, no engineer would ever bring Loch for anything else. I don't realy see how it can be improved on the Merc, but I don't know if the Merc should benefit too much from it either, it's okay now if you have a gunner on the Merc, but I guess the risk of using it in light guns is a bit higher and probably not worth it, so you got me there.
If ships could afford to bring 2 gunners, Loch would be used more on the Merc, but I don't think that's happening any time soon
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