Raising consciousness for "stacking" !

[-Mad Maverick-]

ah that makes more sense

[Eukari]

Rainer, I understand- and I do think that PuGs suffer from a lot of one-sided matches. But, I also kinda agree with Imagine here; if I'm playing with friends, the most fun for me is when we're all on the same ship. Killing buddies is fun, but you don't get to talk to them during the match or anything. We're not trying to stack the match, we just want to hang out on a cool airship.

[Rainer Zu Fall]

Putting together one side for the sole reason of stomping pubs is bad. The amount of times that's the reasoning behind supposed "stacking" is somewhere around zero. People on same teams or people who are friends (or both) enjoy themselves more when playing together, that's the bottom line. Telling people to go campaign against playing together and that instead they should be playing against each other is what I say No to.

Sadly it's not around zero. There are players that want to win/increase their win streak/don't want to fight against difficult enemies, and that's their exact reason.

I do not say they should not play together, I'm sorry, but I think you haven't understodd the whole purpose of this. As already stated, stacking players that like to play together not only as a crew but as a team could also play against other teams that feel that way instead of many teams only playing against unexperienced players.
Or play with unexperienced players on both sides to make it fair. That way you also may make new friends.

So "Telling people to go campaign against playing together" is not only what I meant but also something I don't want to be achieved by that. If people want to, they sure can play as a crew together and their friends could play on the opposite team if there are not enough lobbies to perform the first examplary solution.

Rainer, I understand- and I do think that PuGs suffer from a lot of one-sided matches. But, I also kinda agree with Imagine here; if I'm playing with friends, the most fun for me is when we're all on the same ship. Killing buddies is fun, but you don't get to talk to them during the match or anything. We're not trying to stack the match, we just want to hang out on a cool airship.

That's why I gave you the example of

You can put one crew that works on one side an the other one on the other side.

.
As said, if you don't like that, there are many ways to achieve a fair match for everyone and also play with your friends - be it team or crew.

[Garou]

While we're at it, let's run down a familiar PuG scenario:

You've played 5 matches with crews who don't talk, don't bring the correct loadout (after being asked), or just generally sort of do what they want ("Please stop shooting that carronade engie, the hull is down). On top of that, your allied captain isn't talking and just kind of rushes in wherever he wants. Despite your best efforts, you find yourself on the losing end every match, but you swallow your frustration and soldier on.

A few people filter out, a few more filter in, and suddenly, FINALLY, you find yourself with some crew who are willing to work with you, who listen when you make requests, and an allied captain who is eager to work with you and employ some strategy. Some of them are experienced and their levels show it. Angels sing from on high. You win your next few matches handily. Then someone starts crying "Stack!" and telling you to switch teams. What?! The game finally got good for you, why would you want to leave all these cool people to go back to that same bad experience you were having a few matches ago??

I fully understand the point of this thread, and I know that intentional stacking -does- happen, and it's bad, but in the interest of playing Devil's Advocate, not everything is so cut-and-dry.

[Rainer Zu Fall]

The game finally got good for you, why would you want to leave all these cool people to go back to that same bad experience you were having a few matches ago??

That's because you probably already entered a match or lobby that didn't have many experienced people in it. If you would, as said, enter a match with more/only experienced people (you don't have to know them by the way) this wouldn't happen. As harsh as this may sound, but if you want to play with unexperienced players as the only or one of only a few experienced players don't expect things to be perfect. Those guys are learning the game.
If you don't like that, don't enter the game and make it less annyoing for you and them.

[Garou]

That's because you probably already entered a match or lobby that didn't have many experienced people in it.

Now you're being selective. You mean to say you've never been in a match that had a mix of experienced and inexperienced people in it? You've never flown that match where one player not listening throws off your entire ship? Where your main engie is more interested in shooting guns than repairing and, though your other crews might be solid, that one cog breaks the machine? Please.

[Rainer Zu Fall]

I was - but because of teaching purposes. Otherwise I enter those lobbies, take a look, "Oh, those guys are not my level, better leave them to themselves" and leave.

[Garou]

I was - but because of teaching purposes. Otherwise I enter those lobbies, take a look, "Oh, those guys are not my level, better leave them to themselves" and leave.

Again, you're using selective memory there. I know personally, I've had plenty of matches where a few guys are good, a few not so good. I don't throw blame around, and I swallow my frustration, but by the same I stick around both because the competition is good, and for the sake of those crew members that are good, and try to make something work. Really, don't tell me you haven't had -those- matches in PuGs. If not, then you probably play mostly with people on your friends list. Nothing wrong with that, but it's not the same as a random PuG. You take what you can get in those matches, and a lot of times what you get isn't close to what you want.

And yes, I -do- try to instruct as I play when I see a new player. I feel most of us do. I very seldom see anyone lambasting new players for being new, and those people are generally called out by the other experienced players for being a jerk.

[Andika]

I was there at that match which Rainer got the idea for this thread from (I understand this is a general thread, but you asked for personal stacking stories  ), and to me it seemed that stacking wasn't really intentional there in the sense that nobody wanted to get an overpowered team against inexperienced/new players. (I was on the "overpowered" side, and based on the discussions on our ship I can tell that nobody wanted a stomping team there, in fact everyone complained about balance issues midgame, which justifies your points about the game not being fun that way) It's just that it is difficult to arrange a balance when new players are continuously joining into the lobby, and by that, they mix up, quite unintentionally of course, any balance attempts that were originally started. (By new players I mean new to that lobby, not to the game).

I guess this is what happened in that particular lobby where people tried to move to the other team after a match or so, but at the same time some of the more experienced captains left the lobby, and less experienced ones joined in their places, so we ended up with the same imbalanced setup in spite of some players switching sides. (BTW, switching sides and arranging crew members for minutes in a lobby often scares players away. I have been in many lobbies where it was indeed the less experienced team that wanted to ready up asap, because they just wanted to play/have fun and didn't want to wait for the boring balancing/ammo loadouts, etc.)

Not to mention that many folks just really want to stick with their friends for a couple of matches, so they will not go to the other side. Not because someone wants to win all the time, I guess everyone would agree that challenging matches are the most rewarding and exciting to play, but because, lets say, I wanna keep chatting with my friends, and party chat can get really messy after a while if we are on other teams.

Anyway, I too have been stomped a bunch of times by stacking crews, what I usually do is switch to another match for a few minutes until things get evened out there, unless of course the stacking ships are willing to mix up a bit.

But honestly, while I agree that stacking is a problem, I rarely like leaving ships if it means that I don't get to play with my best friends around here. Some of my friends here are hardly ever online (or we just miss each other because of time zones), and when I manage to catch them online, I am so happy about seeing them that I simply do not want to go to other teams. Also, I've got friends with whom I fly a lot, but I simply enjoy playing with them so much, that whenever there is a spot on their ships, I just can't resist joining in. And all this doesn't mean that I never get to know new folks or never fly with strangers, naturally. 

BTW, a good midway solution against team stacking could be to move one whole ship on the overpowered side to the other side of the match. That way one can still play with friends on the same ship, but the two more experienced ships won't stay on the same team.

[Imagine]

Putting together one side for the sole reason of stomping pubs is bad. The amount of times that's the reasoning behind supposed "stacking" is somewhere around zero. People on same teams or people who are friends (or both) enjoy themselves more when playing together, that's the bottom line. Telling people to go campaign against playing together and that instead they should be playing against each other is what I say No to.

Sadly it's not around zero. There are players that want to win/increase their win streak/don't want to fight against difficult enemies, and that's their exact reason.

I do not say they should not play together, I'm sorry, but I think you haven't understodd the whole purpose of this. As already stated, stacking players that like to play together not only as a crew but as a team could also play against other teams that feel that way instead of many teams only playing against unexperienced players.
Or play with unexperienced players on both sides to make it fair. That way you also may make new friends.

So "Telling people to go campaign against playing together" is not only what I meant but also something I don't want to be achieved by that. If people want to, they sure can play as a crew together and their friends could play on the opposite team if there are not enough lobbies to perform the first examplary solution.

Sorry, but I gotta call bullshit on that. Do you have some kind of actual proof, chat logs, video, anything of the sort with which you can actually definitively say the reason some folks were playing on one side was solely because they wanted to stomp pubs for your aformentioned reasons, and on a regular basis? Because frankly most the people I know don't even look at that stuff more than like maybe once every few weeks.

And if you're just... assuming this to be the case, then I really don't have anything else to say to you.

Look, I know your heart is in the right place with this, but really the problem is, as I mentioned, this is basically a campaign to tell friends to play against each other instead of together.

[Rainer Zu Fall]

BTW, a good midway solution against team stacking could be to move one whole ship on the overpowered side to the other side of the match. That way one can still play with friends on the same ship, but the two more experienced ships won't stay on the same team.

That is one of the solutions I actually suggested 2 or 3 times right now.

Sorry, but I gotta call bullshit on that. Do you have some kind of actual proof, chat logs, video, anything of the sort with which you can actually definitively say the reason some folks were playing on one side was solely because they wanted to stomp pubs for your aformentioned reasons, and on a regular basis? Because frankly most the people I know don't even look at that stuff more than like maybe once every few weeks.

Yes I've got screenshots. Been collecting some over the last 2 weeks. I'm not gonna publish them anywhere though since I don't want people to be dragged into this as "this is a bad guy!". You've got to understand that too.

Look, I know your heart is in the right place with this, but really the problem is, as I mentioned, this is basically a campaign to tell friends to play against each other instead of together.

Then I am sorry to say that you still didn't get my point. I really like to try to make it a bit more understandable to you if you want over PM but I'm not gonna write the same things over and over and over again. If it was because someone brought up a new point, sure! I like to discuss ideas or get corrected if I missed something that made my point of view false. But I am not willing to repeat everything I said that already answered the replies incoming.

EDIT: Misspelling corrected

[Imagine]

Sorry, but I gotta call bullshit on that. Do you have some kind of actual proof, chat logs, video, anything of the sort with which you can actually definitively say the reason some folks were playing on one side was solely because they wanted to stomp pubs for your aformentioned reasons, and on a regular basis? Because frankly most the people I know don't even look at that stuff more than like maybe once every few weeks.

Yes I've got screenshots. Been collecting some over the last 2 weeks. I'm not gonna publish them anywhere though since I don't want people to be dragged into this as "this is a bad guy!". You've got to understand that too.

So blank out names or something. Sorry, I just straight don't believe it. I mean, I can see it happening maybe here and there, but on a consistent basis? I just don't see it.

Look, I know your heart is in the right place with this, but really the problem is, as I mentioned, this is basically a campaign to tell friends to play against each other instead of together.

Then I am sorry to say that you still didn't get my point. I really like to try to make it a bit more understandable to you if you want over PM but I'm not gonna write the same things over and over and over again. If it was because someone brought up a new point, sure! I like to discuss ideas or get corrected if I missed something that made my point of view false. But I am not willing to repeat everything I said that already answered the replies incoming.

EDIT: Misspelling corrected

I mean, at it's core it really is, because it's what you're trying to affect the most. But whatever, it's apparent that you're not getting my point so I'm going to move on from here.

[HamsterIV]

@Andika
I suggested something similar called the "Ship Shuffel" here:
https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,225.msg2439.html#msg2439

I acknowledge stacking is a problem but some times I don't have the mental energy or patience to put up with inexperienced players. Once you have been on a very well run ship/team it is hard to watch people play at a less than optimal level.

I am fully behind stacking teams if there is a troll or ship of trolls in a match. There is no better way to show someone that their behavior is unacceptable to the community than abandoning them for the other side.

[Rainer Zu Fall]

So blank out names or something. Sorry, I just straight don't believe it. I mean, I can see it happening maybe here and there, but on a consistent basis? I just don't see it.

And how does that prove that there's always the same people stacking because of that reason?

I mean, at it's core it really is, because it's what you're trying to affect the most. But whatever, it's apparent that you're not getting my point so I'm going to move on from here.

Then explain it to me please. If it contains "play with friends", "crew split", "not the energy to play with unexperienced players" or "make new friends" it has already been answered and I've gotten your point (and answered it).

I acknowledge stacking is a problem but some times I don't have the mental energy or patience to put up with inexperienced players. Once you have been on a very well run ship/team it is hard to watch people play at a less than optimal level.

That only is understandable and human, as said. As an examplary solution I pointed out experienced players could just stick together in a lobby. If you don't want unexperienced players to join create a match with a password and ask in global who wants to join, give them the password then. If you got some in, others tend to come and aggregate in this lobby/match.

Also, I already wrote an idea (not in this thread) about a to be enabled lobby option "start-stop" or a "join-stop". Basically the levels of players (I know they don't show the experience, but you gain basic experience by playing and you gain levels to a certain point by just playing) in this lobby can be added and a factor calculated. If someone's level is far below this factor he/she may not join (join-stop). If the factors are different on each team the match can't be started (start-stop).
This would at least lead to anti-stack results without splitting the community too much and still allow players to play with their friends.

[Garou]

I am fully behind stacking teams if there is a troll or ship of trolls in a match. There is no better way to show someone that their behavior is unacceptable to the community than abandoning them for the other side.

Agreed. I actually had a fun experience with that sort of stacking once. I joined a pub, and on my ship I had a relatively new gunner. He was a young guy, maybe early-mid teens, with a high voice. He was a nice kid, asking me questions and taking my advice and generally being polite.

On the blue side was a ship full of trolls. Two of them kept asking if he was a girl. Clearly having been asked before, the kid sort of sighed and, staying polite, said "Yeah, I know, I have kind of a high pitched voice, but I'm a guy not a girl". The trolls then proceeded to say lewd things to him (which I won't repeat here) for the duration of the lobby.

Before that moment, I was ready to team-hop for the sake of balance. After, I decided we were going to crush these fools. I got with my allied captain and together we focused the troll ship -hard-. They rage quit after 2 deaths. The kid on my ship was clearly having a blast and by the end had completely forgotten about their hazing.

Great times