Author Topic: Lesmok 1.3.1  (Read 71244 times)

Offline DerZivilist

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Re: Lesmok 1.3.1
« Reply #30 on: August 13, 2013, 10:44:23 am »
An observation I'd like to add as a very new player who's been browsing these forums for advice...

There's a couple good guides on gunnery and ammo out there, and they all seem to agree: lesmok rounds are among the most often mentioned ammo types of them all. I've been getting a similar feeling ingame; when I first logged in and knew zilch all and just browsed the character configurator, lesmok rounds were one of the things I instinctively added to my gunner's equipment, because it simply sounded universally useful.

I think that should be food for thought, and a slight nerf probably isn't entirely misplaced (especially if some numbers even improved in return). There's plenty of other ammo types to use, some of which seem rather underused.

If a gun ends up completely unviable through not having the old lesmok rounds available, then it's probably the gun that needs looking at and not the ammo.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2013, 10:45:55 am by DerZivilist »

Offline awkm

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Re: Lesmok 1.3.1
« Reply #31 on: August 13, 2013, 11:21:34 am »
I think muse should spend more time reducing the barrier to entry/enjoyment for new players then nurfing guns based  On what the top echelon teams are mastering.

False.  During a dev pickup game, my team was completely disabled by one dbl Field Gun Pyramidion.  There is hardly any organization that goes into those matches because we release passwords to the public.  If a new player can come into the game and completely suck the fun out for other people by just pointing and clicking then that's a problem.


If a gun ends up completely unviable through not having the old lesmok rounds available, then it's probably the gun that needs looking at and not the ammo.

@DerZivilist, everything you have said is on point. 

Lesmok was a no-brainer to carry, there is no choice in that.  No choice is bad choice.  If a gun is suddenly debilitated because it can't use a particular ammo, then that's a problem with the gun.  The ammo is just a crutch.  So what everyone is saying here is that both Flaks are too weak and the Mortar is too strong.  Lesmok will probably need another debuff.

@Smollett

I still have no idea what you're asking for.  The projectile traveling faster DOES mean the range has been extended.  Each projectile weapon has a ShellLife in seconds.  At whatever speed that projectile is travelling at, once ShellLife has been reached the projectile will explode.  This is how we keep range in check for projectile weapons under the hood.  It's not exposed but it's trivial to calculate given the information that's already available.  So far, no skill alters ShellLife. 

The Heavy Flak has gained a huge amount of range because of the +80% projectile speed.  The only thing that it has lost is 1 extra shot at that new maximum range with Lesmok.




Again, I encourage everyone to try using new ammo types on guns.  I have no problems changing Lesmok around or doing whatever.  But if it's truly the case that Heavy Flak only being effective with 1.3 Lesmok, then the Heavy Flak is broken.

Offline RearAdmiralZill

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Re: Lesmok 1.3.1
« Reply #32 on: August 13, 2013, 11:49:33 am »
Quote
So what everyone is saying here is that both Flaks are too weak and the Mortar is too strong.

I'm talking light variants just to reiterate. Maybe the mortar needs spread again to compensate for the added boon it gets from lesmok.

After testing last night, we pretty much gave up using lesmok in a merc in favor of other ammo, as it just wasn't useful anymore.

LJ pretty much comes out equal, though it technically is easier to hit with at range. That also equates to more arming time.

I don't usually use heavy flak. It was always very situational, and unless hull armor is down, it was generally not useful to me. Depending on how easy it is to shoot now with the added speed, I can see one shot being fine so as insta kills don't become a thing at max range. Im talking theory though as I don't use them much.

Tweaking lesmok is like tweaking the gatling for you, essentially, because it is the only ammo type that increases the range of guns, so it's of paramount importance to those trying to use such tactics.

That said, I haven't shot a heavy flak in ages, but I don't remember it being easy. You make these guns with huge range, but without lesmok, hitting at that range is nigh impossible. I get the dance that goes on here though. If you make guns easier to shoot, lesmok makes it too easy. Make them too hard, and lesmok becomes required.

Offline awkm

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Re: Lesmok 1.3.1
« Reply #33 on: August 13, 2013, 11:51:40 am »
Yes, this is pretty much the dance as you've described.

Those are good clarifications, though.  Useful.  Thanks.

Offline Captain Smollett

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Re: Lesmok 1.3.1
« Reply #34 on: August 13, 2013, 12:00:27 pm »
I was thinking of possibly increasing the shell life of heavy flak, though I'm not sure if that would be balanced under the new lesmok.

Maybe we should just change lesmok to a lower speed boost but to increase shell life of bullets.  Now that would be cool (good idea awkm).

edit - I just realized how many darn things that would change, would be interesting to test though

Offline awkm

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Re: Lesmok 1.3.1
« Reply #35 on: August 13, 2013, 12:02:23 pm »
Maybe we should just change lesmok to a lower speed boost but to increase shell life of bullets.  Now that would be cool (good idea awkm).

Yes, it may be that time to create a new skill that does this.  Although I'd point out that increasing just ShellLife doesn't do anything to arcs.  E.g. increased ShellLife on Lumberjack will make it have an effectively longer range but you'll need to point your gun towards the sky to get it that much farther...

Offline Calico Jack

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Re: Lesmok 1.3.1
« Reply #36 on: August 13, 2013, 12:06:51 pm »
---

I agree - I suggest a UI for toggling adjustable restrictive settings for competitive play would be better than global changes.

So Cogs would be a completely different game from actual GOI? That's not a realistic idea.


Wait what? You're telling me Cogs game play is representative of game play in the game in general?  I couldn't disagree more.

Adding a GUI that can limit number of shots, shot characteristics etc doesn't make it a whole other game - just make the handicaps optional and not global.

Offline Captain Smollett

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Re: Lesmok 1.3.1
« Reply #37 on: August 13, 2013, 12:19:21 pm »
Maybe we should just change lesmok to a lower speed boost but to increase shell life of bullets.  Now that would be cool (good idea awkm).

Yes, it may be that time to create a new skill that does this.  Although I'd point out that increasing just ShellLife doesn't do anything to arcs.  E.g. increased ShellLife on Lumberjack will make it have an effectively longer range but you'll need to point your gun towards the sky to get it that much farther...

I was thinking of maybe making lesmok a hybrid skill where it would lets say increase speed 40% but also increase shell life.  It would however change so many different guns though so it would need serious field testing. 

Also other than the artemis, heavy flak and flamer I'm not sure how many guns would really benefit from longer shell life.

Offline N-Sunderland

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Re: Lesmok 1.3.1
« Reply #38 on: August 13, 2013, 12:19:45 pm »
Wait what? You're telling me Cogs game play is representative of game play in the game in general?  I couldn't disagree more.

That's not what he said. His point is that separating competitive play and general play with actual game mechanics only serves to split the community up, which isn't something we really want to do. Not to mention how hard it would make it to practice competitive builds...

Offline shadowsteel

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Re: Lesmok 1.3.1
« Reply #39 on: August 13, 2013, 12:29:06 pm »
Maybe we should just change lesmok to a lower speed boost but to increase shell life of bullets.  Now that would be cool (good idea awkm).

Yes, it may be that time to create a new skill that does this.  Although I'd point out that increasing just ShellLife doesn't do anything to arcs.  E.g. increased ShellLife on Lumberjack will make it have an effectively longer range but you'll need to point your gun towards the sky to get it that much farther...

I was thinking of maybe making lesmok a hybrid skill where it would lets say increase speed 40% but also increase shell life.  It would however change so many different guns though so it would need serious field testing. 

Also other than the artemis, heavy flak and flamer I'm not sure how many guns would really benefit from longer shell life.

I think all guns benefit from extended shell life. All the projectiles currently explode after a certain amount of time.
Except for harpoon, gatling, mine launcher and carronades.

Offline RearAdmiralZill

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Re: Lesmok 1.3.1
« Reply #40 on: August 13, 2013, 12:31:21 pm »
Mortars are a good example of what added shell life gives you. Problem is what awkm said.

Quote
Although I'd point out that increasing just ShellLife doesn't do anything to arcs.  E.g. increased ShellLife on Lumberjack will make it have an effectively longer range but you'll need to point your gun towards the sky to get it that much farther...

I don't think rolling it into lesmok is the right idea. A totally new ammo might work.

Offline Calico Jack

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Re: Lesmok 1.3.1
« Reply #41 on: August 13, 2013, 12:41:39 pm »
Wait what? You're telling me Cogs game play is representative of game play in the game in general?  I couldn't disagree more.

That's not what he said. His point is that separating competitive play and general play with actual game mechanics only serves to split the community up, which isn't something we really want to do. Not to mention how hard it would make it to practice competitive builds...

To practice would require a match where everyone agrees to use the same settings, pretty much the way things work where you have regulations governing load outs, or are you telling me practice is carried out in public matches?

As to being divisive, I'm not the only person to think certain aspects of the last patch were encouraged by current competitive play styles using sniping.

Offline RearAdmiralZill

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Re: Lesmok 1.3.1
« Reply #42 on: August 13, 2013, 12:47:45 pm »
Guys, this is a lesmok thread. Please keep it as such.

Offline Letus

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Re: Lesmok 1.3.1
« Reply #43 on: August 13, 2013, 07:07:20 pm »
Well, to be blunt, I haven't noticed a difference on Lumberjack with it, but if you think about it, it now has the same amount of shots incendiary had.  Granted you can still shoot at a long range, perhaps easier, but the further arming time means you have a less closing distance with Lesmok, forcing you to chose another shot for that distance where as the gap between Lesmok and regular/burst/charged was rather small.

Now, as for the Mercury field cannon...never used the shot for that gun...always went burst rounds or charged rounds....

As for the Typhon Flak, I feel like that gun suffers the most.  The only viable use would still be on a double-flak Galleon...otherwise, I feel that the Typhon has been thrown under the bus for this one.  (And I was in the middle of making a guide for that gun, too...)

Offline Echoez

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Re: Lesmok 1.3.1
« Reply #44 on: August 14, 2013, 11:17:49 am »
The new Lesmok surely does make aimming both the Light and Heavy Mortars a piece of cake. The projectile speed increase is crazy.

I do enjoy this change, but something needs to be done about the Flaks that are getting the short end of the stick with this change.