Guns Of Icarus Online
Main => Gameplay => Topic started by: RearAdmiralZill on August 12, 2013, 02:27:33 pm
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So I figured this would come around sooner or later. Why not now?
I played with it a little in the dev app and gave my feedback. I don't see the reason to change lesmok for seemingly only one gun, while also affecting many others that use it. The merc was already nerfed on its own, which to me was justified and done so well. Why nerf the ammo that makes it useful at it's intended role of long range disables?
This also nerfs the heavy flak, which we can all hopefully agree needs no such thing. It actually buffs LJ since you get more accurate shots, and you only need 3 to kill a balloon. Light mortars will shoot more like light flak, and with still more ammo. Artemis and flamethrowers get messed with too (not sure exactly how yet, as not tested)
Just feels like merc nerfing overkill. The changes to the gun itself are fine. Ammo changes went too far. Thoughts?
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You already know that I agree, but yes. I'm assuming the intent was to adjust lesmok with the mercury in mind, but adjusting lesmok affects so many other guns that it has a lot of bad side effects. I'm happy with the existing mercury nerf, and don't really see why lesmok needs to be touched beyond that. I don't think there was any issue with lesmok prior to this patch.
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Yes, the change to Lesmok was in response to testing with Field Gun changes. It was said to still be too effective and therefore the change was made. Yes, it does change how other guns are used. However, Field Gun is a bigger deal than the other weapons. If Field Gun, with or without skills, is causing the same problems as before then nothing has changed.
Unfortunately, other guns also receive spillover treatment. Such is the nature of integrated systems.
Other suggestions are more than welcome.
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If Field Gun, with or without skills, is causing the same problems as before then nothing has changed.
I was always repositioning for arc in the dev app to where it wasn't as efficient as before. With the merc drop added, it was even harder still to tap the guns with it. If the issue was killing things from across the map, you already hit that hard with the drop since everyone was using buffed/charged to get that damage.
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The problem is also movement denial.
However, if the clouds seem to do their job then we can reconsider the next steps. Again, this is all based on feedback. Lesmok was considered the go-to skill for Field Gun abuse. If there are other ideas instead of Ammo Reduction, let me know. Rate of fire?
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The nerf lesmok did to heavy flak was just really way too much.
I think changes to the mercury should be considered within the mercury gun itself since an ammo type change casts way to broad of a stroke.
Perhaps a slightly larger reduction to the speed of the shot and a small reduction to piercing damage?
Or maybe just leave the merc where it's at and put lesmok back to 1.3, see how it goes and move from there. I've always liked the idea of small incremental changes over time.
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Lesmok changes will probably also affect mortar launchers pretty significantly, too.
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The nerf lesmok did to heavy flak was just really way too much.
Yeah, this is my biggest issue with it. The heavy flak is now almost entirely useless, and it was underused prior to this patch to begin with. My honest opinion is that we should leave mercury changes without lesmok changes for this patch, and if we're still seeing issues then to address lesmok later on. It seems like a case of trying to do too many things at once. I don't think it's worth it at all to break other guns just in an attempt to fix the mercury.
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Find a new skill to use with Flak. I don't believe that just because one skill can't be used with Flak makes the gun useless. If there is only one viable skill for a gun, then we have a problem.
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Rate of fire?
On the merc or lesmok?
If lesmok, I could see it. Thing with lesmok is that it is the only ammo that allows you to efficiently hit at these guns' max ranges. Slowing the rate of fire thus allowing for more repair chance seems ok.
On merc alone, eh, eventually you'll tweak it so much that it becomes useless. I still like your changes to it on its own. Since now the focus seems to be lesmok, id take slower firing vs less ammo.
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Rate of fire for Lesmok, yes.
As usual. I'm going to let this settle for a while until I make any changes.
And yes, I consider this still smaller increments.
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At least dev app it and give her a try, once the initial patch shock simmers.
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Yup, it'll be in Dev App first.
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Clouds won't really do their job because teams will constantly flare them. If you want to really maximize these changes and hinder long range engage battles, then the change does not need to come to merc or lesmok but to flares. Give their cloud seeing ability as a limited distance around the point of the flare. They'll still have a use but you'd need to place them near the location of an actual ship to reveal it.
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Find a new skill to use with Flak. I don't believe that just because one skill can't be used with Flak makes the gun useless. If there is only one viable skill for a gun, then we have a problem.
Well the big thing for lesmok with Flak was that it gave it effectively a range of 1.6 km. It wasn't the ease of shooting but the increase in range which is really necessary if firing from a Spire or Galleon, otherwise the range of the gun is too limited and gives the enemy a really easy window to close into arm time from. If the heavy Flak was allowed to travel farther before detonating then the lesmok change wouldn't be so brutal to the gun.
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@Smollett
I don't understand what you're trying to say. The effective range of Heavy Flak with new Lesmok is actually longer (faster projectile speed). Therefore it's arming time is also further out, armed at 432m to be exact. So yes, the heavy is traveling farther before detonating (arming?). At the end of the day, it's total effective range is 1814m with Lesmok, +200m from before.
What this means is that you need to be farther away to get someone outside arming range, and only have 1 ammo before you need to reload. It kind of sucks, sure. I can look into decreasing arming time for Heavy Flak in general but this will also bring about other changes.
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Lesmok flamer is now ridiculous.
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Lesmok flamer is now ridiculous.
I am totally okay with this hahahahah.
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If the problem is with the gun, why not just change the gun? Increase reload time, decrease rate of fire, reduce its damage... there are so many different ways you can further limit the effectiveness of the merc without altering the ammo, which comes with a lot of collateral damage.
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Merc is already slow as is. Even if you change the gun and nerf it more, it'll still be used in tandem with 2-4 mercs. This will only further to make sniper battles last even longer.
Plus it'll make getting stuff like the 2km kill achievement even worse. I've toyed with it a little already and found it to be totally merc dependent and even then you have to hope the opposing ship doesn't decide to charge you. Keeping the range at 2km is just nuts, specially when you need to do it 100 times.
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The specific problem that needed to be solved was noobs using double Field Gun Pyramidions and sniper camping.
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@Smollett
I don't understand what you're trying to say. The effective range of Heavy Flak with new Lesmok is actually longer (faster projectile speed). Therefore it's arming time is also further out, armed at 432m to be exact. So yes, the heavy is traveling farther before detonating (arming?). At the end of the day, it's total effective range is 1814m with Lesmok, +200m from before.
What this means is that you need to be farther away to get someone outside arming range, and only have 1 ammo before you need to reload. It kind of sucks, sure. I can look into decreasing arming time for Heavy Flak in general but this will also bring about other changes.
I didn't articulate too well before; basically what I'm trying to say is that even prior to 1.31, the heavy flak was a very high risk high reward gun and arguably one of the most difficult guns to truly master. All ships in goi take at least two very precise heavy flak shots to kill, shots that hit neither balloons, engines or guns and land in the 3-7 second window of an enemy ships armor being broken.
Often the gunner will only have one chance to make these shots when the enemy has his armor down & before he's entered into arm time. Once in arm time it's unlikely the enemy will lose armor enough to be killed before the ship firing the flak is killed itself.
Lesmok essentially broadened the time that a flak could be lethal in giving a greater chance for the gunner to land the perfect shot & save his ships life from the charging opponent. The flak with lesmok was lethal up to 1.6km in one salvo and gave the gunner a greater chance of felling the foe before they in turn did so to them.
Although now lesmok gives the gun a range of 1.8km, it's not really an effective range, since ships can shrug off 1 shot, rebuild their armor and kill the flak firing ship before their armor is dropped again thereby heavily reducing the high reward garnered from such a high risk weapon.
My proposal to offset the lesmok changes would be to allow the Flak bullet to survive longer in flight and thereby increase the lethal effective range of regular ammunition. As for the current arming time on heavy flak, it seems to be just fine as it is.
edit- TL/DR - The heavy flak losing the ability to kill at long range due to the lesmok change is a huge nerf, perhaps increasing the range (not the speed) of the shot will help offset this large nerf.
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Lesmok flamer is now ridiculous.
I am totally okay with this hahahahah.
As am I.
And I can think of a couple of other people who are too.
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Carronade and heavy flak both with 1 round in lesmok are rendered less effective imo. I played both today, prior to the update carronade was a viable close range alternative to the LJ.
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I think muse should spend more time reducing the barrier to entry/enjoyment for new players then nurfing guns based On what the top echelon teams are mastering. The nurfing of gun accuracy only h urts new players and has little effect on teams who spend 10 or more hours practicing a single skill...as example find me any player under 500 games who ENJOYS using the lumberjack or the scylla, let alone with any proficiency. This change, like many others over the past year, that seem idiotic as they simply lower the enjoyment factor and the ability of new players to be competitive... in the end might be a waist of time...let just continue this path and replace all guns with the Icarus gun...so every ship is balanced and unplayable and everyone leaves the community and I can go back to playing Awsomenauts
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let me clarify....the reason why noobs are using sniper builds is because muse has made every other gun useless or uinaccessible to new players, and this is all they have left
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I think muse should spend more time reducing the barrier to entry/enjoyment for new players then nurfing guns based On what the top echelon teams are mastering. The nurfing of gun accuracy only h urts new players and has little effect on teams who spend 10 or more hours practicing a single skill...as example find me any player under 500hrs who ENJOYS using the lumberjack or the scylla, let alone with any proficiency. This change, like many others over the past year, that seem idiotic as they simply lower the enjoyment factor and the ability of new players to be competitive... in the end might be a waist of time...let just continue this path and replace all guns with the Icarus gun...so every ship is balanced and unplayable and everyone leaves the community and I can go back to playing Awsomenauts
I agree - I suggest a UI for toggling adjustable restrictive settings for competitive play would be better than global changes.
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I agree - I suggest a UI for toggling adjustable restrictive settings for competitive play would be better than global changes.
So Cogs would be a completely different game from actual GOI? That's not a realistic idea.
Anyhow, can't test right now, so I can't see how heavy flak is or anything.
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I don't like how the new lesmok has rendered the light flak useless as now a light mortar shoots like a laser, and still has more shots than the light flak ever would.
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I don't like how the new lesmok has rendered the light flak useless as now a light mortar shoots like a laser, and still has more shots than the light flak ever would.
The light flak was already hurt badly by 1.3, but this is nailing the coffin shut, now that you bring it up.
Another thing that worries me is the sheer effectiveness of the lumber at long range with the new lesmok. I'll have to test it more, though...
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I don't like how the new lesmok has rendered the light flak useless as now a light mortar shoots like a laser, and still has more shots than the light flak ever would.
The light flak was already hurt badly by 1.3, but this is nailing the coffin shut, now that you bring it up.
Another thing that worries me is the sheer effectiveness of the lumber at long range with the new lesmok. I'll have to test it more, though...
Nah LJ is pretty nasty. It depends though. At max range, it's easier to hit with, but the arming time gets larger so it's not all buff. I think it evens out with one less ammo yet more consistent hits in terms of dps.
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An observation I'd like to add as a very new player who's been browsing these forums for advice...
There's a couple good guides on gunnery and ammo out there, and they all seem to agree: lesmok rounds are among the most often mentioned ammo types of them all. I've been getting a similar feeling ingame; when I first logged in and knew zilch all and just browsed the character configurator, lesmok rounds were one of the things I instinctively added to my gunner's equipment, because it simply sounded universally useful.
I think that should be food for thought, and a slight nerf probably isn't entirely misplaced (especially if some numbers even improved in return). There's plenty of other ammo types to use, some of which seem rather underused.
If a gun ends up completely unviable through not having the old lesmok rounds available, then it's probably the gun that needs looking at and not the ammo.
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I think muse should spend more time reducing the barrier to entry/enjoyment for new players then nurfing guns based On what the top echelon teams are mastering.
False. During a dev pickup game, my team was completely disabled by one dbl Field Gun Pyramidion. There is hardly any organization that goes into those matches because we release passwords to the public. If a new player can come into the game and completely suck the fun out for other people by just pointing and clicking then that's a problem.
If a gun ends up completely unviable through not having the old lesmok rounds available, then it's probably the gun that needs looking at and not the ammo.
@DerZivilist, everything you have said is on point.
Lesmok was a no-brainer to carry, there is no choice in that. No choice is bad choice. If a gun is suddenly debilitated because it can't use a particular ammo, then that's a problem with the gun. The ammo is just a crutch. So what everyone is saying here is that both Flaks are too weak and the Mortar is too strong. Lesmok will probably need another debuff.
@Smollett
I still have no idea what you're asking for. The projectile traveling faster DOES mean the range has been extended. Each projectile weapon has a ShellLife in seconds. At whatever speed that projectile is travelling at, once ShellLife has been reached the projectile will explode. This is how we keep range in check for projectile weapons under the hood. It's not exposed but it's trivial to calculate given the information that's already available. So far, no skill alters ShellLife.
The Heavy Flak has gained a huge amount of range because of the +80% projectile speed. The only thing that it has lost is 1 extra shot at that new maximum range with Lesmok.
Again, I encourage everyone to try using new ammo types on guns. I have no problems changing Lesmok around or doing whatever. But if it's truly the case that Heavy Flak only being effective with 1.3 Lesmok, then the Heavy Flak is broken.
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So what everyone is saying here is that both Flaks are too weak and the Mortar is too strong.
I'm talking light variants just to reiterate. Maybe the mortar needs spread again to compensate for the added boon it gets from lesmok.
After testing last night, we pretty much gave up using lesmok in a merc in favor of other ammo, as it just wasn't useful anymore.
LJ pretty much comes out equal, though it technically is easier to hit with at range. That also equates to more arming time.
I don't usually use heavy flak. It was always very situational, and unless hull armor is down, it was generally not useful to me. Depending on how easy it is to shoot now with the added speed, I can see one shot being fine so as insta kills don't become a thing at max range. Im talking theory though as I don't use them much.
Tweaking lesmok is like tweaking the gatling for you, essentially, because it is the only ammo type that increases the range of guns, so it's of paramount importance to those trying to use such tactics.
That said, I haven't shot a heavy flak in ages, but I don't remember it being easy. You make these guns with huge range, but without lesmok, hitting at that range is nigh impossible. I get the dance that goes on here though. If you make guns easier to shoot, lesmok makes it too easy. Make them too hard, and lesmok becomes required.
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Yes, this is pretty much the dance as you've described.
Those are good clarifications, though. Useful. Thanks.
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I was thinking of possibly increasing the shell life of heavy flak, though I'm not sure if that would be balanced under the new lesmok.
Maybe we should just change lesmok to a lower speed boost but to increase shell life of bullets. Now that would be cool (good idea awkm).
edit - I just realized how many darn things that would change, would be interesting to test though
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Maybe we should just change lesmok to a lower speed boost but to increase shell life of bullets. Now that would be cool (good idea awkm).
Yes, it may be that time to create a new skill that does this. Although I'd point out that increasing just ShellLife doesn't do anything to arcs. E.g. increased ShellLife on Lumberjack will make it have an effectively longer range but you'll need to point your gun towards the sky to get it that much farther...
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I agree - I suggest a UI for toggling adjustable restrictive settings for competitive play would be better than global changes.
So Cogs would be a completely different game from actual GOI? That's not a realistic idea.
Wait what? You're telling me Cogs game play is representative of game play in the game in general? I couldn't disagree more.
Adding a GUI that can limit number of shots, shot characteristics etc doesn't make it a whole other game - just make the handicaps optional and not global.
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Maybe we should just change lesmok to a lower speed boost but to increase shell life of bullets. Now that would be cool (good idea awkm).
Yes, it may be that time to create a new skill that does this. Although I'd point out that increasing just ShellLife doesn't do anything to arcs. E.g. increased ShellLife on Lumberjack will make it have an effectively longer range but you'll need to point your gun towards the sky to get it that much farther...
I was thinking of maybe making lesmok a hybrid skill where it would lets say increase speed 40% but also increase shell life. It would however change so many different guns though so it would need serious field testing.
Also other than the artemis, heavy flak and flamer I'm not sure how many guns would really benefit from longer shell life.
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Wait what? You're telling me Cogs game play is representative of game play in the game in general? I couldn't disagree more.
That's not what he said. His point is that separating competitive play and general play with actual game mechanics only serves to split the community up, which isn't something we really want to do. Not to mention how hard it would make it to practice competitive builds...
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Maybe we should just change lesmok to a lower speed boost but to increase shell life of bullets. Now that would be cool (good idea awkm).
Yes, it may be that time to create a new skill that does this. Although I'd point out that increasing just ShellLife doesn't do anything to arcs. E.g. increased ShellLife on Lumberjack will make it have an effectively longer range but you'll need to point your gun towards the sky to get it that much farther...
I was thinking of maybe making lesmok a hybrid skill where it would lets say increase speed 40% but also increase shell life. It would however change so many different guns though so it would need serious field testing.
Also other than the artemis, heavy flak and flamer I'm not sure how many guns would really benefit from longer shell life.
I think all guns benefit from extended shell life. All the projectiles currently explode after a certain amount of time.
Except for harpoon, gatling, mine launcher and carronades.
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Mortars are a good example of what added shell life gives you. Problem is what awkm said.
Although I'd point out that increasing just ShellLife doesn't do anything to arcs. E.g. increased ShellLife on Lumberjack will make it have an effectively longer range but you'll need to point your gun towards the sky to get it that much farther...
I don't think rolling it into lesmok is the right idea. A totally new ammo might work.
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Wait what? You're telling me Cogs game play is representative of game play in the game in general? I couldn't disagree more.
That's not what he said. His point is that separating competitive play and general play with actual game mechanics only serves to split the community up, which isn't something we really want to do. Not to mention how hard it would make it to practice competitive builds...
To practice would require a match where everyone agrees to use the same settings, pretty much the way things work where you have regulations governing load outs, or are you telling me practice is carried out in public matches?
As to being divisive, I'm not the only person to think certain aspects of the last patch were encouraged by current competitive play styles using sniping.
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Guys, this is a lesmok thread. Please keep it as such.
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Well, to be blunt, I haven't noticed a difference on Lumberjack with it, but if you think about it, it now has the same amount of shots incendiary had. Granted you can still shoot at a long range, perhaps easier, but the further arming time means you have a less closing distance with Lesmok, forcing you to chose another shot for that distance where as the gap between Lesmok and regular/burst/charged was rather small.
Now, as for the Mercury field cannon...never used the shot for that gun...always went burst rounds or charged rounds....
As for the Typhon Flak, I feel like that gun suffers the most. The only viable use would still be on a double-flak Galleon...otherwise, I feel that the Typhon has been thrown under the bus for this one. (And I was in the middle of making a guide for that gun, too...)
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The new Lesmok surely does make aimming both the Light and Heavy Mortars a piece of cake. The projectile speed increase is crazy.
I do enjoy this change, but something needs to be done about the Flaks that are getting the short end of the stick with this change.
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The new Lesmok surely does make aimming both the Light and Heavy Mortars a piece of cake. The projectile speed increase is crazy.
I do enjoy this change, but something needs to be done about the Flaks that are getting the short end of the stick with this change.
Heavy Flak, sure. Lesmok was a crutch for an already sick gun. Lesmok being its default ammo is bad. 1 option = no option = no fun.
Light Flak, really? It's clip size is 4, a -20% and -30% have the same effect. 4 * 0.7 = 2.8 rounded up to 3. 4 * 0.8 = 3.2 rounded down to 3. So... what's the real complaint here?
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I think that the reason why light flak got the short end of the stick, was due to the fact that with lesmok, it makes the Mortar a "Light flak" in a sense... with more ammo.... should be an easy balance though
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Yes, easy balance.
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Perhaps this is crazy but what if the ammo reduction was 50%. We would still be seeing 1 shot for heavy carronade, flak, merc, and flare, and the high capacity weapons would be not so high capacity. People may still use lesmok on the light mortar, but there would now be large arguments to use other rounds.
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Yes, I was thinking of that as well. ALL THE TOUGH CALLS TO BE MADE.
fml
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I think that the reason why light flak got the short end of the stick, was due to the fact that with lesmok, it makes the Mortar a "Light flak" in a sense... with more ammo.... should be an easy balance though
I'm not entirely sure that's the fault of Lesmok though, I mean in the past month or so almost everyone has switched to using mortars over light flak anyways.
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People were gradually seeing the mortar as the better brawler choice at the end of Cogs season 1. I was content with my flaks though as I was using a more precise timing system for my flaks. Then they specialized heavy (I refuse to call it a nerf). Light flak was all but killed by this as it generally needs heavy but only three shots is not viable except in certain long range situations (Polaris Company vs Raft cog match comes to mind). Along with the rest of the world, I switched to light mortar. However, now with the new lesmok, mortars can now shoot with almost the same accuracy as the light flak. Its not the nail in the coffin but instead the spit put over the grave.
Also awkm, as much as we hate your changes, we the community love you very much. Keep up the good fight. Let these otters holding hands keep your spirits up. They do this so they don't float away when they sleep.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/79/Sea_otters_holding_hands.jpg)
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50% ammo reduction would be a bit harsh for the Mortar, I can see it working with 40% though.
50% reduction leaves you with 8 shots, 40% reduction leaves you with 10 shots.
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The mortar though is shooting with pinpoint accuracy, does it need ten shots? I think putting it to 50% would just allow for a larger variety of ammos to be used but I can still see people using lesmok. Regardless I think the best rebalance is to further decrease clip size and like your number as well
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Mmm. You might be right, I might have to look at the total damage caused by these shots. 50% might actually be better.
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This would change the amount of ammo in a Lumberjack too though - I don't think this gun needs a nerf.
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This would change the amount of ammo in a Lumberjack too though - I don't think this gun needs a nerf.
I did the math, even 50% would reduce the LJ's ammo to 3.5, which then rounds up to the current 4 with Lesmok, doesn't affect it.
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What about a banshee and the flamer?
Lumberjack has 6 shots, right? So 30% now would be 1.8 - leaving us with 4.2. 50% though would leave us with 3, which is one less. Considering one shot less per clip with the reload time does quite a difference, I think.
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This would change the amount of ammo in a Lumberjack too though - I don't think this gun needs a nerf.
I did the math, even 50% would reduce the LJ's ammo to 3.5, which then rounds up to the current 4 with Lesmok, doesn't affect it.
The lumber has 6 shots base, so you'd get three.
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2 separate thoughts here:
I think the way to reel back in the mortar is to decrease the speed boost from lesmok. The 80% is what's causing the problem, further ammo reduction seems unnecessary.
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The reason why the light flak has come out of favor is 2 fold.
The flak was used heavily in competitive play and emulated in pubs due to it's pinpoint precision killing power with heavy clip. Though a mortar had way more power and was better in close range a flak was practically infallible. If you buffed it and used heavy clip, any ship besides a goldfish or galleon would evaporate when the armor dropped. Well timed light flaks could actually reload and finish galleons as well before they fully rebuilt and goldies easily had their armor brought back down.
Before the heavy clip was changed, light mortar lost its jitter. This started the transition where about 20-30% of players actually started preferring mortar because it became possible to hit with. Many older competitive teams stuck with the flak for its precision but newer teams started experimenting with the raw power of the mortar.
Then heavy clip caused light flak to lose a shot. That was, as Sammy described, the nail in the coffin. The flak invariably became obsolete since in a 1v1 brawl even if the flak ship dropped the mortar ships armor; it couldn't secure the kill, so the mortar ship would rebuild and kill the flak ship first even if the flak ship had the advantage.
So precision vs raw power doesn't become a debate if precision can't secure a kill with 1 clip. So in a way heavy clip light flak has the exact same problem as lesmok heavy flak. Guns that used to be very good due to their accuracy, lost their competitive edge due to the inability to 1 clip kill.
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This would change the amount of ammo in a Lumberjack too though - I don't think this gun needs a nerf.
I did the math, even 50% would reduce the LJ's ammo to 3.5, which then rounds up to the current 4 with Lesmok, doesn't affect it.
The lumber has 6 shots base, so you'd get three.
It has 6 shots base?.. I remembered it had 7. My bad then.
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Decreasing the mortar's range would make lesmok still necessary with particular kinds of playing, without pushing it too far in direction of being OP when using other rounds. The usage of other rounds though would be induced. Don't know if this is enough to nerf it a bit, but might be worth thinking about it. Maybe a little change might be necessary besides this one.
You may think about decreasing the damage a little bit, but only a little bit though. This would lead to more usage of burst, charged or lochnagar and balancing it with the light flak in terms of killing power (as well as other guns).
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My thought is that the Mortar already benefits greatly from other ammo types, hence why I believe the problem stands with Lesmok and not the gun itself.
Greased rounds on the Mortar are an amazing way to dispose of everything lightling fast while burst is very good to spread out damage to components while getting some extra shots. Heck, even Incediary is pretty annoyingif used correctly. Of course I'm talking about the game in general and less about the competitive scene, because honestly, no matter what, unless you nerf Lesmok or the gun itself an awful lot, Lesmok will still be used on it for the added range and accuracy it provides.
For a suggestion:
What if Lesmok had a firing rate decrease instead of further nerfing the clip size? Something like Charged, around 15-20% firing rate penalty. That would decrease the Mortar's DPS from far away and allow ships more reaction time while still providing a good range boost, it wouldn't affect guns like the Heavy Flak Lumberjack and Mercury a lot.
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As someone who is well established as being insane, I'd say bump up both clip size of the flaks and the hull health of ships. That way you have more need to use heavy hitters when the armor is down. Of course I'm fairly often going to say more hull health when it comes to balance.
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Our problem with that gun is that it's used too much, right? It's used too much because it works better than any other piercing/explosive combo at the moment.
Keeping that in mind, let's compare: The light flak deals medium damage on a high accuracy and quite medium range. The mortar currently can hit on the same range with some mediocre-high accuracy, but deals much more damage.
One could say "just decrease the damage and it's fine". Yeah, you might think so, but decreasing damage will still leave us with a gun that has a range capacity from pretty close to quite medium and mediocre-high accuracy. That means we have a flak we need to arc to hit. This would provide the only difference, making the flak the way to go since it would be easier to hit.
Instead we should think about what to use the mortar for, what to specialize it in. And this would be close quarter combat, I think. Take the flak if you want to stay a bit more on range, like a mobula with it's weak hull but more guns aiming at one target. Take the mortar if you want to get close and cuddly, like on a pyramidion where you can use it's strenght - ramming.
Thinking about that we need to change something, so the mortar would be used mainly in CQC. I think about decreasing range, since you can't change it to spread it's shots more. But since we don't want the mortar to only hit when already cuddling with the enemy, I say decrease it a bit and decrease the damage as well a tiny bit, to compensate for that.
Those are my thoughts on it.
@Queso:
First I notice is that this takes many changes on different objects.
But I'm with you about bumping up the heavy flak's clip size by one. I don't think the clip sizes (on the light flak not at all) should be increased over 9000, because that would lead to piercing/explosive combo being OP again, but a little bit on the heavy might solve that problem too.
More hull health is something I don't want to see. It's already quite good the way it is - never touch a running system!
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Rainer, I agree with you that the light mortar has a bit too much range now.
My opinion though is it's not the gun's problem, but a problem with lesmok. If lesmok didn't give such a range boost, then mortar would have to be a close cuddly type of weapon.
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I think it's a gun you want the other way round than the heavy flak: Use lesmok to get closer and then use burst/charged/lochnagar to get them where it hurts.
But maybe that's just how I see it. Anyone else having ideas about that?
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I still think it has to do with the lack of any spread on the mortar.
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tbh long range mortar shots have the potential to deal damage, but you can avoid them much more easily than a flak shot due to the slower speed so even with the new range unless the gunner gets a tight vector, it's more of a hazard than a threat.
Personally I feel the reason for the rise of the mortar is boredom - whoever gets stationed on the flak is in for long periods of waiting followed by emptying 1 clip then reloading and waiting some more while the gat gunner gnaws away at the next target.
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never touch a running system!
A system that works is a far cry from a perfect system.
A 3rd heavy flak shot would probably be a good boost the gun needed and keep it from requiring 2 shot Lesmok to be useful.
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I just want to bring up that, due to the design and reload animation, the Heavy Flak would look kind of silly fireing three shots as default.
Fireing one or three shots due to different ammo makes sense, but a double-barrel weapon fireing three shots with no special ammo seems.... Odd.
Take that as you will.
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I just want to bring up that, due to the design and reload animation, the Heavy Flak would look kind of silly fireing three shots as default.
This is actually a very good point. Can't go on and piss off the art team! They'll hang me!
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I just want to bring up that, due to the design and reload animation, the Heavy Flak would look kind of silly fireing three shots as default.
This is actually a very good point. Can't go on and piss off the art team! They'll hang me!
Tell them to add a 3rd barrel to the heavy Flak, problem solved :P
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I just want to bring up that, due to the design and reload animation, the Heavy Flak would look kind of silly fireing three shots as default.
This is actually a very good point. Can't go on and piss off the art team! They'll hang me!
Tell them to add a 3rd barrel to the heavy Flak, problem solved :P
a heavy gatflak then?
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Personally I feel the reason for the rise of the mortar is boredom - whoever gets stationed on the flak is in for long periods of waiting followed by emptying 1 clip then reloading and waiting some more while the gat gunner gnaws away at the next target.
What? No. Absolutely not. The mortar replaced the flak as the go-to finishing gun because of the changes to heavy clip in 1.3, which left the flak unable to finish the Pyramidion or Galleon quickly enough.
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Personally I feel the reason for the rise of the mortar is boredom - whoever gets stationed on the flak is in for long periods of waiting followed by emptying 1 clip then reloading and waiting some more while the gat gunner gnaws away at the next target.
What? No. Absolutely not. The mortar replaced the flak as the go-to finishing gun because of the changes to heavy clip in 1.3, which left the flak unable to finish the Pyramidion or Galleon quickly enough.
Perhaps for you, my reason for switching was through crew feedback.
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I still think it has to do with the lack of any spread on the mortar.
That's what I suggested too as first thought, but since it doesn't seem to be able to be applied...well, I guess we need to look at it from another point of view.I just want to bring up that, due to the design and reload animation, the Heavy Flak would look kind of silly fireing three shots as default.
This is actually a very good point. Can't go on and piss off the art team! They'll hang me!
Yup, you're both right about that. Hm.
But seems to have been solved in the new test version.
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Quote from: RearAdmiralZill on August 14, 2013, 04:46:00 pm
I still think it has to do with the lack of any spread on the mortar.
That's what I suggested too as first thought, but since it doesn't seem to be able to be applied...well, I guess we need to look at it from another point of view.
Really? I thought any gun could have it added or removed, as mortar had it before and was then buffed by it being removed. I'm not talking ship movement but rather just the shot not always going exactly where you aim, much like light flak does with no heavy clip.
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Yeah, decreasing the mortar's accuracy (so to say) somehow would maybe help solve the problem of it being mainly used with only lesmok right now.
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I can add some jitter back into Mortar.
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It could be just me but I actually liked the Mortar as a slow moving but precise skill shot.
I just seems that darn Lesmok is shooting it too fast now.
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I'm telling you, 50% ammo clip with lesmok.
You still get the one shot with the small clip guns.
You reduce the ammo size for lumerjack and light mortar enough to compensate for their new straightness.
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I'm telling you, 50% ammo clip with lesmok.
You still get the one shot with the small clip guns.
You reduce the ammo size for lumerjack and light mortar enough to compensate for their new straightness.
I think that this is a pretty fine change to balance it out since the gun is only problematic with Lesmok.
50% drops it to 8 ammo, which aren't enough to cause both armor and hull pressure at once, but is still enough to kill a Pyra within a clip if you land all rounds.
It's also a fine trade off for both the Flamer and the LJ for how easier it makes long shots now.
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50% drops it to 8 ammo, which aren't enough to cause both armor and hull pressure at once, but is still enough to kill a Pyra within a clip if you land all rounds.
That's still a replacement for light flak, which is the very issue we want to fix.
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50% drops it to 8 ammo, which aren't enough to cause both armor and hull pressure at once, but is still enough to kill a Pyra within a clip if you land all rounds.
That's still a replacement for light flak, which is the very issue we want to fix.
I think that the light flak itself should be looked at, since there's clearly an issue there.
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IM LOOKING OKAY?
jeez.
:P
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Well, Queso a long time ago spoke about reducing jitter on the light flak. Before this made the thought of burst ammo light flak seem super op to me; but with the way the light mortar is these days, maybe that would make it balanced.
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Also 50% ammo to lesmok seems extreme, just like 80% increase in speed seems extreme.
I think we just need to slow down the lesmok boost a bit. I mean we all like the longer range flame thrower, but maybe we just need to increase the range on the flamer.
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Also 50% ammo to lesmok seems extreme, just like 80% increase in speed seems extreme.
I think we just need to slow down the lesmok boost a bit. I mean we all like the longer range flame thrower, but maybe we just need to increase the range on the flamer.
Must...... Resist..... saying...... What everyone expects me to say.....
Has anyone tried lesmock on the light flak?
Because with the insane range boost, it might out-distance the Heavy Gatling. It might even make a nice counterpart to the Merc at mid-range...
Never tested this, just asking anyone else if they have.
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Also 50% ammo to lesmok seems extreme, just like 80% increase in speed seems extreme.
I think we just need to slow down the lesmok boost a bit. I mean we all like the longer range flame thrower, but maybe we just need to increase the range on the flamer.
Must...... Resist..... saying...... What everyone expects me to say.....
Has anyone tried lesmock on the light flak?
Because with the insane range boost, it might out-distance the Heavy Gatling. It might even make a nice counterpart to the Merc at mid-range...
Never tested this, just asking anyone else if they have.
The jitter is way, way too high for that to work.
And the light flak has higher base range than the gat anyways.
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The jitter is way, way too high for that to work.
And the light flak has higher base range than the gat anyways.
Okay, thanks. Just wondering.
The only thing the light flak seems to have over the mortar is that it shoots in a straight path, has a lot more damage per shot, and reloads quicker. This is overshadowed by the gigantic clip size of the mortar, and now with lesmock, it pretty much shoots straight.
If we were to make flak viable again, it would have to be able to do something significant that the mortar can't.
Out ranging would be my shot at it.
Make light flak more similar to heavy flak, perhaps?
Give it an arming time, but also less jitter.
I dunno, I've still got a lot to learn about this game, but that's just my take on things.