MAPS Balance Discussion v1.3.1

[RearAdmiralZill]

Well, fun is relative. I take it for the pure utility of the thing in long-to-mid range. Just because a gun can hit at 3 km out doesn't mean that's the only distance you have to use it at.

As for CQC ships being more powerful, that's not what I got out of testing last night. Not saying they are weak, but not invincible.

[Rainer Zu Fall]

I don't said they're invincible. What I said was that at the moment a fight on more than 1km isn't possible anymore on most occasions, so taking a CQC ship is the better alternative. Previously you could use a far range and a CQC ship. Now 2 CQCs are better than that combination. Shooting at just 500m isn't called "far range" combat. It's medium range. Not saying nerfing merc wasn't good and necessary, it was. But nerfing every far range gun... It's like driving a SUV if you're only driving through cities. Sure you can put lots of things in it - but there's other vehicles with the same ability. It doesn't fulfill it's sense, that's what I'm talking about.
Far range achievements for the classes are now useless too.

[Captain Smollett]

Guys, I'm just going to step to the side of some of these discussions and say, though I don't agree 100% with all of the changes I think the way the 1.3 field gun interacted with some of the 1.3 maps was a real problem that did in fact need addressing.

I have strong recollection of a match that happened less than a month ago where 2 newbie ships sat in the far back of Canyon red spawn spamming merc fire at me.

Now I consider myself a decent player and though my ally was a pub player he was capable.  This being said the red team was giving us hell.  They were able to score several kills just by sitting in place in the back of their own spawn. Though I eventually won the match I had to work way harder with a far more complicated strategy to defeat them then they had to use to merc spam me.  At the end of the day a really good team can overcome mercury spam and good teams do it all the time, however in a pub match with average players, in a large open match using merc spam is the easy button, and to be honest even though I won that match, it wasn't really all that much fun to play in.

[Captain Smollett]

@Rainer

I agree the game has taken a step away from long range and very long range combat.

A LJ Flak Galleon is still quite good however at mid range combat and longer than mid range combat.

[Rainer Zu Fall]

If I want mid range combat I'll use a gatling with heavy clip/mortar or a merc/flak combo.

Sure, they are good for mid range combat and I'm still gonna use them for that purpose. But that's not the thinking behind "far range guns"... Those guns haven't been OP. Why nerf them?

[RearAdmiralZill]

That's your opinion though. I...don't know what you want from Muse. You have to work to get shots at "far range." You shouldn't be able to spawn into a match, immediately turn your broadsides, and have a clear shot across the map.

[Rainer Zu Fall]

Zill, you don't get what I'm talking about, sorry to say that. Maybe it's just me not making it clear though. Let me please try again.

Having "[...] a clear shot across the map [...]" isn't what I'm looking for. I'm looking for far ranged guns to be used for they use they were designed for: Long range combat. I don't want them to be turned into a merc. But I don't want them to just be a better mortar too. Previously "[...] immediately turn[ing] your broadsides [...]" after "[...] spawn[ing] into a match [...]" wasn't possible too with a Lumberjack or Heavy flak, the guns I'm talking about. They needed to stay in range, which wasn't that far but still more than medium range. On open maps, you were able top spot the enemy earlier. It's been a whole different kind of fighting then all those guerilla cloudy maps (which I like too, don't get me wrong here).
It's just that with those new clouds, that kind of fighting has just vanished, it's gone. It's not about the guns or sniping, I don't overpowered far range fight. I don't want guns to shoot across a whole map. I just want different kinds of fighting back, when you had to think of different tactics and different ship layouts.

The heavy flak though is another topic for itself at the moment.

[RearAdmiralZill]

I think better understanding you now, but we just don't appear to be having the same experience after the patch with long range fighting. I took my galleon to dunes and was able to manage long range engagements (not all merc) with my LJ. Flares helped to some degree, but the real trick was moving out of those clouds and finding holes in between them, because there really was open areas for us to use LJ/Flak. You did have to move more though because of the changing cloud situation, which I think was the intent.

Forgive me if I'm either still misunderstanding or just not agreeing with you.

[Rainer Zu Fall]

Now you're just not agreeing with me, which is good. Maybe I didn't have the right gunners to play with and thus missed those opportunites. I'm gonna take a look into that matter again.

Still, the second problem stays unmentioned: It's not only about long range fight but the whole situation itself. You're on a map where everyone can clearly see what you're doing. Imagine 4 ships with only CQC loadout. That needs a completely different thinking of the pilots. It's just... I liked that there were other maps than just thos guerilla sneaky maps with cover to hide yourself everywhere.
A whole new situation you find yourself in - which needs the pilots and crew to set completely different priorities on tasks and tactics!

[awkm]

@RainerZuFall

Non deathmatch maps facilitate your kind of play.

I'd argue that Duel at Dawn and Paritan are pretty good for brawling.

[Rainer Zu Fall]

CP maps are a whole different level in terms of strategies, you need a completely different approach to them - as you needed to both of those map types.
Currently with the new patch, I see the main focus on brawling. Duel at Dawn for example is THE brawling map besides Canyon Ambush. On Paritian you still have those many covers and corners to hide and sneak up. There still isn't this different situation I'm talking about - open terrain.

Imagine a war between two nations. Now imagine them not using tanks or snipers or planes, just "normal" soldiers. They wouldn't act the same way in a jungle as they would on a field, would they?
(Imagine all the people...)

[Letus]

Red spawn in Canyon still is open enough to sit as far back as possible with enough vision to snipe.
At least in my opinion.

Haven't seen Blue spawn yet.

[Pickle]

I really don't like the new clouds on Dunes.  It's like flying through fog, no clear view to get you bearing on where you are and at spawning in you team mate can be invisible despite being only half a map square away.  The sense of space has gone from the map.

[naufrago]

I think the primary issue is that the clouds are so frickin' huge. I'm fine either way, but it might not hurt to make the clouds smaller.

[Imagine]

So far I've liked all the new clouds actually, but it's pretty hilarious to see some clouds moving in canyons spawns while others are totally stationary.... like, some clouds passing through other clouds