Guns Of Icarus Online
Main => Gameplay => Topic started by: awkm on August 12, 2013, 02:24:20 pm
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How you like dem clouds? But seriously, they're there to mitigate snipe camping. Make it either harder to snipe camp or easier to approach snipers.
Let me know
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I LOVE nerfs to sniping... but... I have to admit their may be a tad too many clouds. Just a tad.
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I LOVE nerfs to sniping... but... I have to admit their may be a tad too many clouds. Just a tad.
Which maps, and where?
Please be specific so I can address them
In Canyons there are only 4 additional clouds. Dunes has the most additional clouds and they move.
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Sorry, I meant on Dunes. I didn't realize there were any new clouds on Canyons. I'll have to take another look to see in which location specifically.
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You know what? I take back my position about too many clouds. I played a few more matches, and the feeling of Dunes has definitely changed. I think at first the change gave me a feeling of unfamiliarity, but I see now that it actually feels more like a battlefield
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Great, glad to hear. Any comment on Field Gun usage or camping on these two maps would be greatly appreciated.
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I like the nerf to the field gun, I really disliked having my galleon shut down by one field gun. The bad news is that the lesmok nerf hit the heavy flak very hard too, the poor gun just can't have a chance to shine anymore. Also, the ship names on HUD is irritating, maybe switch it so you can see them on the map instead of in your face.
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I agree that the clouds work, but in my opinion it sort of detracts from what is a graphically beautiful game. Not that the cloud graphics aren't great, it's just that for a good portion of dunes or canyon, all you see is the inside of a cloud. I think adding clouds should only be used as a temporary stop-gap measure until something else (?) can be done to prevent snipe camping. Otherwise, I'm frightened as to what this game will look like if every time a new camping-setup is discovered, the reaction is to add more clouds. I'm almost definitely over-concerned, but I don't want this game to turn into Clouds of Icarus.
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It was fine as it was.
Sniping was a greatly exaggerated problem, you only need a working brain to deal with it. But no. Whiners win.
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It was fine as it was.
Sniping was a greatly exaggerated problem, you only need a working brain to deal with it. But no. Whiners win.
You know, I would agree with you here. To be blatantly honest, the Field Gun has been the bane of my existence since this game went into beta. It's had so many problems. It's been literally on the razor's edge since it's inception. Even without any changes for the past 3 months (let's not count penetration testing since it never made it to production) there's another sudden outburst where there was not a day that went by where we had tons of emails complaining specifically about this gun. That doesn't even include the banter that goes on here on the forum.
Still, I ignored it also because I thought it was totally fine.
However, during a pickup match with devs my team was completely disabled and kept at bay. Granted my team didn't have the best overall loadout to deal with the situation, we knew what we had to do and it was very very difficult doing it. Under normal circumstances I wouldn't have cared because we might have been playing against an organized team. However, we release passwords to our locked pickup games on global chat and it fills up very very quickly. I don't believe the enemy ships played together much, if at all, previously.
What this shows that is it's possible for relatively new players to get on a dbl Field Gun Pyramidion and completely suck the fun out for the opposing team. For us devs, knowing exactly what was happening, it was pretty aggravating. Imagine how that would feel for an average player or a newbie? I bet they'd feel helpless and that's not the kind of game I want to make. I want to have it so with a little planning, you'll a variety of options available to you to deal with the situation.
Veteran players will always expose the nastiest of metas and give me a big headache. That's fine, though. Most of the time these strategies do require a lot of work and coordination, but they are evidence that smaller work can be done to mitigate them if they're being pulled off that consistently (by no means am I not recognizing the skill and coordination that veterans have, I just want to give them something fresh to work with). However, once the metas start trickling down to new players and they can pull them off relatively easily too then that's a good indication of something being unbalanced. This past few weeks we had TGS/Polaris videos go up and a ton of people in the game. Even anecdotal evidence from our Teachers claimed that Field Gun was a go to meta and was extremely deadly as soon as had the right loadout and minor coordination. Not good.
So that's what happened. Whiners only give me part of the equation and without trickle down confirmation whiners rarely win.
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I will say that added clouds has further increased the issue with crosshairs being the same color.
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I will say that added clouds has further increased the issue with crosshairs being the same color.
We're working on this. :D
Really cool stuff coming up.
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On Dunes it's a really big problem now to use a Lumberjack or a Heavy flak (which even is a problem itself at the moment...). Let me put it this way: Using them on Fjords was pretty difficult, since ships could easily vanish in the clouds above. Dunes was a bit better since they could only get closer by using tactics instead of cloud cover.
But now it's even worse than on Fjords! You can't really use a Galleon with two far range guns...
I know that nerfing sniping was necessary, but the Lumberjack and Heavy flak sniping was easy to counter not op. Now it's almost plainly unnecessary to pack Lumberjack and Heavy flak on your ship.
Sorry, but there currently is only CQC instead of varying ship loadouts. Don't really like that.
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I used LJ on the clouded maps just fine. There are still spots to give yourself room for these guns. Those spots just don't equate to the entire map anymore.
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The problem is that there are no open maps right now. Sure, you could use a Lumberjack on any other map too... but it's just no fun. Why use a far range weapon when you're clearly on a CQC map and there's CQC ships that are more powerful at the moment?
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Well, fun is relative. I take it for the pure utility of the thing in long-to-mid range. Just because a gun can hit at 3 km out doesn't mean that's the only distance you have to use it at.
As for CQC ships being more powerful, that's not what I got out of testing last night. Not saying they are weak, but not invincible.
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I don't said they're invincible. What I said was that at the moment a fight on more than 1km isn't possible anymore on most occasions, so taking a CQC ship is the better alternative. Previously you could use a far range and a CQC ship. Now 2 CQCs are better than that combination. Shooting at just 500m isn't called "far range" combat. It's medium range. Not saying nerfing merc wasn't good and necessary, it was. But nerfing every far range gun... It's like driving a SUV if you're only driving through cities. Sure you can put lots of things in it - but there's other vehicles with the same ability. It doesn't fulfill it's sense, that's what I'm talking about.
Far range achievements for the classes are now useless too.
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Guys, I'm just going to step to the side of some of these discussions and say, though I don't agree 100% with all of the changes I think the way the 1.3 field gun interacted with some of the 1.3 maps was a real problem that did in fact need addressing.
I have strong recollection of a match that happened less than a month ago where 2 newbie ships sat in the far back of Canyon red spawn spamming merc fire at me.
Now I consider myself a decent player and though my ally was a pub player he was capable. This being said the red team was giving us hell. They were able to score several kills just by sitting in place in the back of their own spawn. Though I eventually won the match I had to work way harder with a far more complicated strategy to defeat them then they had to use to merc spam me. At the end of the day a really good team can overcome mercury spam and good teams do it all the time, however in a pub match with average players, in a large open match using merc spam is the easy button, and to be honest even though I won that match, it wasn't really all that much fun to play in.
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@Rainer
I agree the game has taken a step away from long range and very long range combat.
A LJ Flak Galleon is still quite good however at mid range combat and longer than mid range combat.
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If I want mid range combat I'll use a gatling with heavy clip/mortar or a merc/flak combo.
Sure, they are good for mid range combat and I'm still gonna use them for that purpose. But that's not the thinking behind "far range guns"... Those guns haven't been OP. Why nerf them?
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That's your opinion though. I...don't know what you want from Muse. You have to work to get shots at "far range." You shouldn't be able to spawn into a match, immediately turn your broadsides, and have a clear shot across the map.
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Zill, you don't get what I'm talking about, sorry to say that. Maybe it's just me not making it clear though. Let me please try again.
Having "[...] a clear shot across the map [...]" isn't what I'm looking for. I'm looking for far ranged guns to be used for they use they were designed for: Long range combat. I don't want them to be turned into a merc. But I don't want them to just be a better mortar too. Previously "[...] immediately turn[ing] your broadsides [...]" after "[...] spawn[ing] into a match [...]" wasn't possible too with a Lumberjack or Heavy flak, the guns I'm talking about. They needed to stay in range, which wasn't that far but still more than medium range. On open maps, you were able top spot the enemy earlier. It's been a whole different kind of fighting then all those guerilla cloudy maps (which I like too, don't get me wrong here).
It's just that with those new clouds, that kind of fighting has just vanished, it's gone. It's not about the guns or sniping, I don't overpowered far range fight. I don't want guns to shoot across a whole map. I just want different kinds of fighting back, when you had to think of different tactics and different ship layouts.
The heavy flak though is another topic for itself at the moment.
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I think better understanding you now, but we just don't appear to be having the same experience after the patch with long range fighting. I took my galleon to dunes and was able to manage long range engagements (not all merc) with my LJ. Flares helped to some degree, but the real trick was moving out of those clouds and finding holes in between them, because there really was open areas for us to use LJ/Flak. You did have to move more though because of the changing cloud situation, which I think was the intent.
Forgive me if I'm either still misunderstanding or just not agreeing with you.
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Now you're just not agreeing with me, which is good. Maybe I didn't have the right gunners to play with and thus missed those opportunites. I'm gonna take a look into that matter again.
Still, the second problem stays unmentioned: It's not only about long range fight but the whole situation itself. You're on a map where everyone can clearly see what you're doing. Imagine 4 ships with only CQC loadout. That needs a completely different thinking of the pilots. It's just... I liked that there were other maps than just thos guerilla sneaky maps with cover to hide yourself everywhere.
A whole new situation you find yourself in - which needs the pilots and crew to set completely different priorities on tasks and tactics!
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@RainerZuFall
Non deathmatch maps facilitate your kind of play.
I'd argue that Duel at Dawn and Paritan are pretty good for brawling.
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CP maps are a whole different level in terms of strategies, you need a completely different approach to them - as you needed to both of those map types.
Currently with the new patch, I see the main focus on brawling. Duel at Dawn for example is THE brawling map besides Canyon Ambush. On Paritian you still have those many covers and corners to hide and sneak up. There still isn't this different situation I'm talking about - open terrain.
Imagine a war between two nations. Now imagine them not using tanks or snipers or planes, just "normal" soldiers. They wouldn't act the same way in a jungle as they would on a field, would they?
(Imagine all the people...)
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Red spawn in Canyon still is open enough to sit as far back as possible with enough vision to snipe.
At least in my opinion.
Haven't seen Blue spawn yet.
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I really don't like the new clouds on Dunes. It's like flying through fog, no clear view to get you bearing on where you are and at spawning in you team mate can be invisible despite being only half a map square away. The sense of space has gone from the map.
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I think the primary issue is that the clouds are so frickin' huge. I'm fine either way, but it might not hurt to make the clouds smaller.
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So far I've liked all the new clouds actually, but it's pretty hilarious to see some clouds moving in canyons spawns while others are totally stationary.... like, some clouds passing through other clouds :D
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Would it be possible to have all the clouds in the maps move?
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Would it be possible to have all the clouds in the maps move?
Oh, I don't think that's necessary, it was just amusing to see was all.
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I really don't like the new clouds on Dunes. It's like flying through fog, no clear view to get you bearing on where you are and at spawning in you team mate can be invisible despite being only half a map square away. The sense of space has gone from the map.
Exactly the same I wanted to express with my previous statements.
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I know that generally major changes shouldn't be made just for competitive play but I think Canyon Ambush is continuing to be problematic. A map that should be about the Canyon is often regulated to camping in either the red or blue spawns and taking potshots at each other. A simple enough solution would be to reduce the top edges of the map so that the spawns stop being the valley of death they currently are. This wouldn't really change pub matches in any significant way and help reduce the ignoring of the Canyon we currently have in Canyon Ambush.
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I understand having clouds in the open area to prevent too much sniping, but in the canyon itself, where there is a lot of hard cover, I don't.
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I know that generally major changes shouldn't be made just for competitive play but I think Canyon Ambush is continuing to be problematic. A map that should be about the Canyon is often regulated to camping in either the red or blue spawns and taking potshots at each other. A simple enough solution would be to reduce the top edges of the map so that the spawns stop being the valley of death they currently are. This wouldn't really change pub matches in any significant way and help reduce the ignoring of the Canyon we currently have in Canyon Ambush.
You know, I suggested the same thing 5 months ago, interesting to see it come up again.
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I know that generally major changes shouldn't be made just for competitive play but I think Canyon Ambush is continuing to be problematic. A map that should be about the Canyon is often regulated to camping in either the red or blue spawns and taking potshots at each other. A simple enough solution would be to reduce the top edges of the map so that the spawns stop being the valley of death they currently are. This wouldn't really change pub matches in any significant way and help reduce the ignoring of the Canyon we currently have in Canyon Ambush.
You know, I suggested the same thing 5 months ago, interesting to see it come up again.
It's the only way to fix it without adding extra hard cover in both spawns.
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I know that generally major changes shouldn't be made just for competitive play but I think Canyon Ambush is continuing to be problematic. A map that should be about the Canyon is often regulated to camping in either the red or blue spawns and taking potshots at each other. A simple enough solution would be to reduce the top edges of the map so that the spawns stop being the valley of death they currently are. This wouldn't really change pub matches in any significant way and help reduce the ignoring of the Canyon we currently have in Canyon Ambush.
You know, I suggested the same thing 5 months ago, interesting to see it come up again.
It's the only way to fix it without adding extra hard cover in both spawns.
Saying that most the time I spawn in the Canyons when on Red's side...I don't see what the real issue is when it comes to adding a little more mess.
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I know that generally major changes shouldn't be made just for competitive play but I think Canyon Ambush is continuing to be problematic. A map that should be about the Canyon is often regulated to camping in either the red or blue spawns and taking potshots at each other. A simple enough solution would be to reduce the top edges of the map so that the spawns stop being the valley of death they currently are. This wouldn't really change pub matches in any significant way and help reduce the ignoring of the Canyon we currently have in Canyon Ambush.
That's a slippery slope. The majority of players don't play competitive GoI.
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I know that generally major changes shouldn't be made just for competitive play but I think Canyon Ambush is continuing to be problematic. A map that should be about the Canyon is often regulated to camping in either the red or blue spawns and taking potshots at each other. A simple enough solution would be to reduce the top edges of the map so that the spawns stop being the valley of death they currently are. This wouldn't really change pub matches in any significant way and help reduce the ignoring of the Canyon we currently have in Canyon Ambush.
That's a slippery slope. The majority of players don't play competitive GoI.
Slippery slope for what? Making changes which makes no difference to regular play and is good for competitive play?
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Calico, that is why I suggested a change that would have no real effect on non-competitive play.
Also btw argument by slippery slope is a logical fallacy. Its basically a strawman.
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Slippery slope for what? Making changes which makes no difference to regular play and is good for competitive play?
I don't think asking for changes that affect general gameplay is the right way to go, it is potentially divisive. I already ran a thread on why there was a general perception that the mercury changes were being forced on general by competitive, and that issue hasn't gone away, by which I mean the root cause of why the idea gained currency rather than the actual changes to the mercury.
If there are issues with competitive play It would be better to work it out in-house with competition regulations rather than a global change imo.
Calico, that is why I suggested a change that would have no real effect on non-competitive play.
You're suggesting, as I understand it, setting a ceiling on the map so ships can't look over the central canyons, to stop snipers from getting enough height to target the opposite spawn, the ceiling would also however shut down 1 access route into blue spawn, that affects general play.
Should it become reality, besides the reason I gave in reply to Imagine, it can be cited as precedent to justify other changes based on purely competitive needs.
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Sammy is suggesting that the spawn areas on either side of the map are made smaller so that people can't sit so deep into their spawns and the fight can be forced into the canyons.
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Ok Sammy - I interpreted "top edges" to mean "upmost verticallly". Rather than make the spawns less deep how about adding more clutter giving more cover options.
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Ok Sammy - I interpreted "top edges" to mean "upmost verticallly". Rather than make the spawns less deep how about adding more clutter giving more cover options.
That would also be a nice change. It was suggested to Eric during the fireside chat, and he said he'd look into it.
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What if the spawns were right next to each other with both ships on each side facing away from one another. Like an old west stand off...
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That would give a huge advantage to any ship that turns fast or has side guns so they only need to turn 45 degrees to open fire. Alternately people who would go full moonshine reverse and ram with their engines.
(They spin really fast like blenders, so they do more damage right?)
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What if the spawns were right next to each other with both ships on each side facing away from one another. Like an old west stand off...
And then you end up with all-Junker matches for the reasons stated by Katastrophe.