stomping pub matches

[Skrimskraw]

So last saturday my team (corvus) played merry men and we lost several games vs merry men.

Merry men stomped us using double mercurys which completely locked down our ships one after another within few seconds.

After this match my team discussed the mercurys ability to pierce the hull and take out several components.

We took this to a random match, which happened to be a low leveled match. Knowing that we would probaly stomp these players we proceeded to play the match and completely stomped these guys without trouble, at a point my gunner killed 3 components on a galleon with 1 shot.

In the lobby afterwards my crew and I apologized to the enemy team for using mercurys, to which they replied that they understood that we were testing its abilities. But they also said that we had destroyed their morale to keep playing, and they logged out.

My point being here is that this kind of gun is capable of breaking morale and actually make people close down the game, is this something we really want in the game? Being shot to pieces in a matter of seconds and then not being able to do anything afterwards?

[RearAdmiralZill]

We actually tried to replicate the penetration we thought we were seeing during our dunes match, and we couldn't do it. We did figure out that the combat log is not always accurate in telling who actually broke x part, so I think it's giving the illusion of penetration when really it is multiple mercs.

That being said, the merc isn't the only gun capable of lowering moral for the enemy. Really any gun has the potential to do so if the skill levels (not that number next to your name, but real skill) are skewed. Hwacha, Heavy carronade, flamethrowers, ect. All of those have a means of locking someone into a spiraling death that looks just as bad on our end as it most likely feels on their's.

I am of a firm belief that players need to want to learn from these kind of loses to really get anywhere in goio, as I certainly did when I started. It's also increasing telling that many simply don't have that want or patience to do so. I'm not calling them bad people, but that is just how that goes. Not everyone will stick around, but encouraging those who do switch up ships and try again has worked for us pretty well.

Basically, losing sucks. We all know that and have felt it during our goio careers. But it's what we do with that loss that determines what happens next.

[Zenark]

I always feel bad when we stomp a lobby full of lower levels. We don't want to leave the lobby, and we definitely don't want to lose on purpose, so we just go with it. The enemy usually rage quits after the 5-0 match. However, this has also been done with higher levels. We'll look pretty balanced in the lobby, but it's still a 5-0 or 5-1, and we don't always use a mercury.

Any ship and/or weapon can bring an enemies morale down to zilch with the right crew. That said, yes, dual mercuries hurt, but that's why you have an ally to take them out while they're bombarding you.

[Pickle]

Gat/Flak can have the same demoralising perfect win effect if your flak gunner knows to hold fire until the armour is down and theirs doesn't.  Having a team mate that coordinates when the opposition isn't even communicating.  Lots of thing contribute to towards PUG-stomping.  Sheer shit-out-of-luck mid-game joining (spare pilots, three gunners) can tip a game into a stomp.

The only uniquely demoralising effect of the mercury comes from its range.  It stomps you from two or three map squares away and there's nothing you can do about it.

[Kyren]

The only uniquely demoralising effect of the mercury comes from its range.  It stomps you from two or three map squares away and there's nothing you can do about it.

That makes it a lot worse than any of the other combinations. It takes at least somewhat advanced tactics to deal with a mercury, while it's nearly foolproof to have it working with a gunner. Put a level 1 gunner on a mercury. Put a level 1 pilot on the other side of the map, have him aproach the mercury. The pilot will have very big problems - the gunner will not. Yes, as usual, the skill ceiling is higher for the pilot, but this is just too uneven.

Remember that we should balance the game for pubs, for newcomers and for people who will not care to acquire deeper knowledge of the game. It is maybe balanced for the more advanced players here, but it is surely not balanced for the majority of players that play sometimes until they drop out again at level 5 or so. But those drop-outers are what balancing needs to be made for, to encourage them to stay, and not get demotivated after the first couple of matches against a mercury.

Ideally we should be able to rely on players choosing loadouts that are appropiate for the skill of the enemy team when facing newbies, but this is not the case. Therefore I second that the Mercury is toned down, to for example, destroying components only with 2 concecussive hits. This will make approaching it much easier, but still retain it's capacity well enough.

[Shinkurex]

I'm just going to put this here guys...

I agree with "feel" as well.  I want the game to played with 80% feel 20% numbers.

The field gun has not changed for many months.  The fact that complaint around this gun does not arise until major tournaments draws me to the conclusion that it requires highly coordinated teams and skilled gunners to pull off the strategies.  If this happens during competitive play and it does require such coordination, I don't think there is a huge problem.  So long as that this does not happen in public matches, then I think we're okay.

This is not to say that there aren't other issues like map design and skills that may mitigate line of sight problems.  These will slowly be worked into the game as we move along.

Otherwise, the field gun will not see any further changes until more piercing and shatter options are made available to lighten the field gun's burden and usage characteristics.


And for the record, the Field Gun does not penetrate.  Ever.  We've seen reports this past weekend and we don't know what to say until we can get reliable reproduction cases for the possible bug.  Everything looks dandy on our end, though.

to elaborate on the OP, it appears as though Skrim and his clan went up against pubs... The level of coordination was just too different. Dual mercs work on my junker, b/c I have two very good clanmates that synch their shots.

[RearAdmiralZill]

You can't tell me that getting killed by a merc is any more demoralizing than getting locked down by a carronade for a slow and seemingly endless death sentence. Beyond that though, nerfing guns for the sake of player retention isn't going to make anything better. People are who they are and will react as such.

[Plasmarobo]

That makes it a lot worse than any of the other combinations. It takes at least somewhat advanced tactics to deal with a mercury, while it's nearly foolproof to have it working with a gunner. Put a level 1 gunner on a mercury. Put a level 1 pilot on the other side of the map, have him aproach the mercury. The pilot will have very big problems - the gunner will not. Yes, as usual, the skill ceiling is higher for the pilot, but this is just too uneven.

Not sure I agree with that. Yeah it sucks, but how else do you learn? Piloting should be much harder, it's all about tactics and coordination. A bad pilot will ruin all the gunners shots, and place the ship in danger. Yes, some people will start to lose and just decide it's not worth their time. Maybe it isn't worth their time. We've got the CAs and community to help them learn what the guns do and how the counter them. If they aren't willing to seek help or listen to us then I'm not sure how much more we can do.

For me it was Yiski that introduced me to the Merc, and that was great. Still got hammered by Zill. I avoided playing matches against the Merry Men for a bit, until I felt a little more confident in my ability to go up against them. Eventually I joined up. Point being I'm not sure I want the drop-outers in the game if they lack tenacity (but maybe that's just me).

In the lobby afterwards my crew and I apologized to the enemy team for using mercurys, to which they replied that they understood that we were testing its abilities. But they also said that we had destroyed their morale to keep playing, and they logged out.

I also occasionally get demoralized and call it a night after a string of losses. That doesn't mean I drop the game forever.

Yes, the Merc could be made a little less effective at killing people. I don't want to see it become the artemis though. I'd rather see a change in how we teach people, rather than a change to game mechanics. Or we could not use competitive tactics against newbies. I'll be a target dummy for you anytime you like.

[Imagine]

It's not really a gun issue (though I'm not a huge fan of the mercury myself). Any time you have an entire team that's experienced and coordinated going against another team full of low-mid level randoms, you're pretty much going to wipe the floor with them regardless of gun use.

Like, I'm pretty sure you could take a spire and a squid and completely wreck face.

The only time this doesn't really work is when you take like all mine mobulas (though it's sure as hell fun )

[Zenark]

Me and an allied captain used dual Spires in a bunch of pub matches and we won 90% of the time. Even on the 'Glass Cannon', with good coordination, you can stomp the enemy team if they're not coordinating like you.

[HamsterIV]

You can't tell me that getting killed by a merc is any more demoralizing than getting locked down by a carronade for a slow and seemingly endless death sentence. Beyond that though, nerfing guns for the sake of player retention isn't going to make anything better. People are who they are and will react as such.

Getting Killed by a merc is more demoralizing than getting locked down by a carronade for a slow and seemingly endless death sentence because you had a chance to shoot the guy with a carronade. It is a little thing, but a carronade has to pass through annother ship's effective gun range before it becomes effective. So the other guys get to see those little white hit boxes and feel like they have accomplished something. They may only scratch your hull armor before you grind them into the dirt, but it is more than if you get dropped by quad merc outside of your weapons' maximum range. As some one who has been stomped on quite a bit it, is those little things that keep you going.

[RomanKar]

One Mercury in decent hands is enough to shut down a Goldfish completely.  At this time, I can see no reason whatever to ever fly a Goldfish.

[Skrimskraw]

I'll elaborate more what happened in the match.

first we took the mercs into a brawl, locking down the enemy. Then the enemy realized they were in trouble brawling us.
Then we started locking them down at longer range, where the field of depth only showed the enemy as spotting boxes.

Shink to say that you were able to do it because you have 2 very good gunners is true, but I still don't see the diffrence. In our match we suffered instant lock down before we barely even showed our faces.

Vs. the carronade using drogue chute is a damn good way of surviving a balloon lock down, while your ally can help you.
vs. the hwacha the hwacha is unable to kill a hull on its own.
however vs. the mercury field guns you are completed screwed in my opinion. with 4 well places shots you are looking at 3 engines + 75% of your hull and possibly your guns down at a range that is so ridiculus when lesmok is applied.

[Zenark]

I see why people dislike the Mercury so much, but even a dual merc Pyra can be killed. Honestly, I bet it would be surprisingly easy to take one out with a Hwacha fish in the right hands, even in Dunes.

Dual mercs are easy to use, that's why they're hard to counter since everything else is a little more difficult.

[Nidh]

With the Heavy Clip change, using a Hwachafish is actually very weak. The thing that made the Hwachafish great was it's ability to at least partially disable from a decent range, thus being able to counter sniping teams to a degree. But with the reduced clip size and the vulnerability of the gun on a goldfish, it has a much harder time disabling anything at all on it's approach.