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Some interesting math about the Mercury Field Gun.
Machiavelliest:
I would argue that the pilot shouldn't bring a Goldfish against a Mercury build on an open map. Or, suffer the damage, dont fully rebuild the main gun until you're in range and get in close. Even on Dunes, you only spawn 1km apart.
There really hasn't seemed to be massive backlash over this gun, so I'd say empirically, it's not as unbalanced as its made out to be in this thread.
Echoez:
--- Quote from: Machiavelliest on July 29, 2013, 03:32:45 am ---I would argue that the pilot shouldn't bring a Goldfish against a Mercury build on an open map. Or, suffer the damage, dont fully rebuild the main gun until you're in range and get in close. Even on Dunes, you only spawn 1km apart.
--- End quote ---
I had to make serveral other points about this gun obvious in this thread, but don't be fooled, my main concern is elimitating the permahull threat this gun is currently and easing up a bit on the pain of instantly disabled guns.
Also mercuries are everywhere, should we not bring a Goldfish or a Spire at all in the game the moment our enemies start being serious and bring the damn gun? I see that as a balance problem since every ship should be at least competative, not sure about you.
--- Quote from: Machiavelliest on July 29, 2013, 03:32:45 am ---There really hasn't seemed to be massive backlash over this gun, so I'd say empirically, it's not as unbalanced as its made out to be in this thread.
--- End quote ---
This gun is at the tip of the iceberg with everyone, they know it's not balanced but can't think of what needs to be done with it so it doesn't end up useless. You might not see it but when I sent a mail to Muse about it, they assured me there have been many others that voiced the same opinion as me. The gun is not balanced properly.
PS: Dunes is a horrible map since it only favors sniping over brawling, a balanced map should offer both playstyles roughly equal chances.
RearAdmiralZill:
--- Quote from: Echoez on July 28, 2013, 09:44:17 pm ---
--- Quote from: RearAdmiralZill on July 28, 2013, 06:44:31 pm ---How about tweaking the shatter damage multiplier on bare hull? Leave the damage the same, tweak other guns that use shatter to do a tad more if needed (though no gun that I know uses shatter as primary damage) to compensate. You have an armor strip/disable with much less bite on the exposed hull.
--- End quote ---
That is an interesting take on it. But the multiplier on bare hull for Shatter is already like 0.1, it would have to be very low like 0.05 or even 0.
Still doesn't solve the one-shotting guns problem though, but if Shatter does 0 damage to permahull, I believe then if you lowered the Shatter it did to 150, so it doesn't one shot a heavy gun, but still severely cripples it, it could be fine.
I also did some research to look at how much lethality do other guns with shatter damage lose to perma hull if Shatter dealt 0 damage to it.
Hwacha with Heavy clip loses out around ~67 damage from a full barrage on perma.
Heavy Carronade loses 44 damage per clip.
Artemis loses 48 damage per clip.
Light carronade loses out on 64 damage per clip, 51.2 if you are using Heavy clip.
Considering most of these guns aren't real permahull killers though, aside from the Hwacha maybe, they aren't hurt that much from Shatter not doing any damage to permahull, only the Mercury gets realy hurt due how it is used to pierce even perma from range.
--- End quote ---
Eh I didn't think the modifier was so low already. I also said that for all other guns using shatter, if they did modify that hull modifier, then they would need to increase the shatter on those other guns as they are balanced currently. No point nerfing hwacha's and carronades.
I don't agree with the sentiment that the merc shouldn't be able to disable. Even a well shot gatling can disable guns. One shotting them might warrant a look into it, but it needs to be able to take out those heavy guns in some form (be it heavily damage them with one shot, kill with two), else ships with no heavy guns wouldn't have a good time, even if they tried spamming artemis.
--- Quote ---PS: Dunes is a horrible map since it only favors sniping over brawling, a balanced map should offer both playstyles roughly equal chances.
--- End quote ---
That's heavily opinionated, and best for a new thread. I'll say that not all maps need to cater to all play styles, else we'd end up with one map doing so. IF you take a short range build into an open desert map, that's your fault, not the map's. Same for taking a pure long range build into Paritan, or any cp map.
Echoez:
--- Quote from: RearAdmiralZill on July 29, 2013, 09:21:04 am ---Eh I didn't think the modifier was so low already. I also said that for all other guns using shatter, if they did modify that hull modifier, then they would need to increase the shatter on those other guns as they are balanced currently. No point nerfing hwacha's and carronades.
I don't agree with the sentiment that the merc shouldn't be able to disable. Even a well shot gatling can disable guns. One shotting them might warrant a look into it, but it needs to be able to take out those heavy guns in some form (be it heavily damage them with one shot, kill with two), else ships with no heavy guns wouldn't have a good time, even if they tried spamming artemis.
--- End quote ---
Heavy guns have a total of around 400 health, I know that since Lochnagar that now does 250 damage to your gun when shot, deals more than half its health pool. 2 Shots with a Mercury that has 150 shatter damage are still sufficient to destroy a heavy gun. Shatter damage multiplier for components is 2, so it would deal 300 damage to it per shot, more than enough to destroy it within those 2 shots.
If Shatter did nothing to permahull, as my numbers prove, other guns don't lose out on much of their permahull damage due to them not realy using shatter as a main source of permahull damage. Only the Mercury gets most of its permahull damage out of the shatter it does. Hence, only the Mercury is realy hurt while all other guns won't feel much of a change.
If you feel like tha Hwacha especially does, you could potentialy buff its explosive a bit to even it out without risking much difference in the armor damage it does due to difference of the modifiers of explosive damage on perma (1.4) and armor (0.3).
--- Quote from: RearAdmiralZill on July 29, 2013, 09:21:04 am ---That's heavily opinionated, and best for a new thread. I'll say that not all maps need to cater to all play styles, else we'd end up with one map doing so. IF you take a short range build into an open desert map, that's your fault, not the map's. Same for taking a pure long range build into Paritan, or any cp map.
--- End quote ---
Heavily opnionated doesn't mean it's not close to the truth, cause even a long range focused team can still play in a tight map like Rumble albight not as a effectively, yet in Dunes playing as a Brawler is almost impossible and your victory is completely dependant on your enemies making some sort of stupid mistake, since the map doesn't have almost any cover aside from 2 ruined metalic hunks who do have quite the space between them. So yes, Dunes for a brawler isn't just 'difficult' it's near the edge of impossible to beat a sniping team there, you might score some kills, but you will most probably not win.
I am implying that both teams are realy good at what they do for simplicity's sake. Cover is an essential element on any other map, Dunes is the only map that lacks sufficient cover over a very wide area.
That's all about maps in this thread though.
RearAdmiralZill:
--- Quote --- Heavy guns have a total of around 400 health, I know that since Lochnagar that now does 250 damage to your gun when shot, deals more than half its health pool. 2 Shots with a Mercury that has 150 shatter damage are still sufficient to destroy a heavy gun. Shatter damage multiplier for components is 2, so it would deal 300 damage to it per shot, more than enough to destroy it within those 2 shots.
If Shatter did nothing to permahull, as my numbers prove, other guns don't lose out on much of their permahull damage due to them not realy using shatter as a main source of permahull damage. Only the Mercury gets most of its permahull damage out of the shatter it does. Hence, only the Mercury is realy hurt while all other guns won't feel much of a change.
If you feel like tha Hwacha especially does, you could potentialy buff its explosive a bit to even it out without risking much difference in the armor damage it does due to difference of the modifiers of explosive damage on perma (1.4) and armor (0.3).
--- End quote ---
I worry about shatter on other guns less for perma and more for their disable capabilities. For hwacha, it would mean more rockets needed to disable x part, which would in turn nerf it as getting a full clip into someone is relatively hard.
Increasing their explosive then increases their chance to ignite a fire on their own (% chance to ignite based on damage) so that becomes an indirect buff.
It's increasingly looking like the best option (initially) is to lower merc shatter damage to where it can either still kill a heavy gun in one shot or heavily damage it (up to devs).
And that is to say if change is even warranted. You obviously feel strongly in favor of a nerfed mercury, but many others feel the opposite. Biased or not, I've been increasingly taking out teams who use more mercs than my side and still coming out on top. It's not an impossible thing to beat, nor overly difficult.
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