Author Topic: Junker Build: Countering the Pyra Gat/Flak  (Read 7960 times)

Offline Thaago

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Junker Build: Countering the Pyra Gat/Flak
« on: June 27, 2013, 03:23:57 pm »
Alternate title: I love the Artemis

Here is a Junker build that I've been using lately to astounding success:

Bottom Guns: Gatlings - put a gunner down here for dps.
Front Guns and Top Guns: Artemis Rocket Launchers - your engineers had better be good shots.

There are three reasons I think this works so well.
1) It combines explosive and piercing damage. Its not as good a killer as Gat/Flak, but it is good. When all is going well, this build can easily maintain 3 guns firing on the enemy - the 2 Artemis' explosive power gets the job done.
2) Everyone has fun crewing it. This might sound stupid, but good morale keeps everyone sharp. Everyone will be firing almost all the time.
3) With Pyramidion Gat/Flak so present in the meta, the Artemis is excellent. Let me explain why:

Pyra Gat/Flak is a quick killer that inexperienced crews and pilots can use to great effect. However, the ship is what I would call a "1.5" gun ship - at any given time only 1 of its main guns really matters. Flak can take down armor by itself, but any engineer can keep it up. Disabling the Gatling essentially cripples a Gat/Flak Pyra: it can't kill you, and can't disable you. It can turn, but with its sluggish response time this is an inferior option.  The Gatling by itself is more of a threat, because it can and will take down armor and eventually hull. But without the Flak to finish you off you will still be MUCH better off.

But you say "Well duh, if you take out their guns, they can't kill you. So what?". I say: the Artemis is superior over other weapons to take out that Gatling because of its range, burst radius, accuracy, and constant pressure. It can take down the Gatling at long ranges, unlike the Carronade: this means that you can knock it out before it does major damage to you. It has a large burst radius, making it more forgiving of wide shots than the Mercury (it also does explosive so synergizes with gat). It is both more accurate and has more constant pressure than the Hwacha: even though the Hwacha can knock out an entire ship if done perfectly, it will often not knock out what you need. The long firing delay also means that the enemy can recover their guns.

Finally, the two Artemis' firing at once makes for an amazing ambush and support build. If a Pyra ignores you to attack your ally: you can knock out all of their engines very fast, saving your ally. Similarly if you ever get to the side or behind a Pyra in a brawl, you can knock out an engine. Since their main engie is pretty busy fighting off your gat, they have to either lose a top gunner or lose the turning battle. Heck, in a brawl if I'm between enemies I will sometimes jump off the helm to fire an off side Artemis. 1 volley that disables something can turn a fight, and with the gat/art's wide firing arcs you have the time.


There are however major downsides to this build.
1) You give up the forward Mercury. I think this is worth it on all maps, except maybe dunes. But even then I just make one side a double snipe, front and other side art/art/gat. Still, this hurts.
2) You don't kill as fast as flaks on the side. If you are in a situation when you need the quick kill (need to run to an ally for example) then you are out of luck.
3) Does not work with AI crew. One is... allright, but you won't be getting accurate triple fire. You really need a crew that knows how to shoot out components. They also better have mics so they can yell at you if (when) you turn the gat out of arc.
4) Its harder to fly than Gat/Flak because the Artemis has a miserable upwards traverse. Down is not good but ok, but you can't be very far below a target. If they knock our your balloon or are above you? Its going to be a bad day.
5) Its harder to captain. This is both because you must maintain triple fire whenever possible, and also because you are responsible for telling your main engie when to repair. The balloon is also your responsibility. Your engies are too busy firing to do the balloon/hull run unless your maneuvering engines are also down.


This is my first guide, so let me know what you think!

Offline James T. Kirk

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Re: Junker Build: Countering the Pyra Gat/Flak
« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2013, 03:47:45 pm »
I love me a good disabler build.
Gotta go try this one out.

Offline RomanKar

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Re: Junker Build: Countering the Pyra Gat/Flak
« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2013, 03:53:48 pm »
Good post, well explained.  I did some experimenting with the Banshee when it got a buff in a recent patch, but was not sold on it at all.  I've tried Artemis a few times, but never been all that impressed.

I'd like to know what ammo you tend to run in the Artemis.  Lesmok for distance and accuracy? Burst for the disable? Greased for the sheer output? Heavy for precision?

I'm thinking Burst might be the way to go, but I'd like to hear what has been working for you.

Probably give this build or something similar a go soon.  I'll report back.

Offline HamsterIV

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Re: Junker Build: Countering the Pyra Gat/Flak
« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2013, 04:14:14 pm »
Very good explanation of your tactics and strategies. I normally fly a Gat/Flack/Gat Pyra for the same reason :
Quote
2) Everyone has fun crewing it. This might sound stupid, but good morale keeps everyone sharp. Everyone will be firing almost all the time.
The trifecta angle is very narrow but getting two gats on target almost negates the need for flack timing. The hull armor just doesn't stay up. Having a wider trifecta angle with the Artemis is nice, but its slow turn rate limits its us fullness as a 2ndary weapon for the main engineer.

I can see how the junker is a superior ship in this regard since a front mounted artemis can be used by a dedicated gunner while the engies can hop on the side guns in between repairs. My main beef with the junker is the distance the hull and balloon are from the closest guns. It is a minor gripe to be sure, but the extra seconds a crew member spends running from the gun to the hull and back is time he could be shooting.

This is a fine guide and a perfectly valid strategy. We should always be experimenting and finding new ways to expand the meta.

Offline Thaago

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Re: Junker Build: Countering the Pyra Gat/Flak
« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2013, 04:42:24 pm »
Thanks for the kind words everyone :).

Good post, well explained.  I did some experimenting with the Banshee when it got a buff in a recent patch, but was not sold on it at all.  I've tried Artemis a few times, but never been all that impressed.

I'd like to know what ammo you tend to run in the Artemis.  Lesmok for distance and accuracy? Burst for the disable? Greased for the sheer output? Heavy for precision?

I'm thinking Burst might be the way to go, but I'd like to hear what has been working for you.

Probably give this build or something similar a go soon.  I'll report back.

I'm eager to hear what you find! When I first ran this build I was kind of shocked at how much more effective 2 Artemis' is than 1. I prefer Burst because the Artemis' long range is kind of borked by its zoom already, and the extra shot helps. In a perfect world both, but I don't think its worth losing an engineer over.

Very good explanation of your tactics and strategies. I normally fly a Gat/Flack/Gat Pyra for the same reason :
Quote
2) Everyone has fun crewing it. This might sound stupid, but good morale keeps everyone sharp. Everyone will be firing almost all the time.
The trifecta angle is very narrow but getting two gats on target almost negates the need for flack timing. The hull armor just doesn't stay up. Having a wider trifecta angle with the Artemis is nice, but its slow turn rate limits its us fullness as a 2ndary weapon for the main engineer.

I can see how the junker is a superior ship in this regard since a front mounted artemis can be used by a dedicated gunner while the engies can hop on the side guns in between repairs. My main beef with the junker is the distance the hull and balloon are from the closest guns. It is a minor gripe to be sure, but the extra seconds a crew member spends running from the gun to the hull and back is time he could be shooting.

This is a fine guide and a perfectly valid strategy. We should always be experimenting and finding new ways to expand the meta.

I actually didn't know about the Gat/Flak/Gat trifecta on a pyra... I'm not sure if I'm a good enough pilot to pull a really narrow angle off. :P Yeah the balloon/gun distance is a little large on a Junker - you can manage it in a reload but not the hull-balloon route. When I'm captaining I pretty much handle the balloon myself - but if the turning engines go down then someone has to run up there. I've 'swapped' with the upper engineer before - they ran upstairs to fix the engines while I hopped on the gun. At that point the front engineer has usually hopped off to baby the hull, so you don't need to worry about keeping up a trifecta angle.

Offline Captain Smollett

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Re: Junker Build: Countering the Pyra Gat/Flak
« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2013, 09:08:14 pm »
I actually ran the double Artemis gat on one side of my Junker to great effect before the Artemis nerf in a Cogs match but I'm certain that it is still quite powerful at medium to close range.  I frequently still run an Artemis on my front mount for many of the reasons stated in the post already.

Oh and Hamster; the distance from the front gun to the hull is very small if you know the sweet spot to hit the hull from underneath without jumping.

Offline James T. Kirk

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Re: Junker Build: Countering the Pyra Gat/Flak
« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2013, 09:20:40 pm »
Oh and Hamster; the distance from the front gun to the hull is very small if you know the sweet spot to hit the hull from underneath without jumping.

At least I'm not the only one who didn't know about that...

Offline Kyren

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Re: Junker Build: Countering the Pyra Gat/Flak
« Reply #7 on: June 28, 2013, 03:42:23 am »
Oh and Hamster; the distance from the front gun to the hull is very small if you know the sweet spot to hit the hull from underneath without jumping.

At least I'm not the only one who didn't know about that...

If it makes you feel better, I didn't either. God, that's going to make serving on a Junker so much easier. I feel like I've been completely ignoring that ship before I read this guide :P Could it be that I moderate this board because I'm in need of guides? :(

Thaago, my thanks for getting involved, I added your Guide to the Guide Overview! If you'd like the description changed just tell (or another Moderator) so!

Good that our ship's section is finally filling up :)

Offline HamsterIV

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Re: Junker Build: Countering the Pyra Gat/Flak
« Reply #8 on: June 28, 2013, 10:15:08 am »
I was aware of the sweet spot, but I think the distance to it is still longer than the distance from the side gun to the hull on the Pyra. It is also a sweet spot and not an area which means it is possible to mess up an spend an extra 1/2 second readjusting yourself until you are sitting on it.

Offline N-Sunderland

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Re: Junker Build: Countering the Pyra Gat/Flak
« Reply #9 on: June 28, 2013, 10:59:46 am »
I was aware of the sweet spot, but I think the distance to it is still longer than the distance from the side gun to the hull on the Pyra. It is also a sweet spot and not an area which means it is possible to mess up an spend an extra 1/2 second readjusting yourself until you are sitting on it.

As an engineer who has spent a good number of hours on the Junker and a stupid number of hours on the Pyramidion, I have to respectfully disagree. Sure, the sweet spot is fairly small, and it takes a moment to get there, but there's a way to compensate for that. When running from the front gun to the hull, jump up before you reach the ramp and land the hit on the hull in mid-air. That's already made up for the distance, since the jump makes it roughly equal to (if not slightly shorter than) the gun to hull on the Pyra. Then, during the first mallet cooldown, you have a full nine seconds to position yourself in the sweet spot. Problem solved.