Engagement length

[Queso]

Right now, fighting the enemy has stopped being as fun as it used to be. Against certain gun combos, my hull feels like swiss cheese. All other component damage numbers feel right (except maybe fire, need to play more with that). Everything is too fragile. Against a gat, armor becomes irrelevant. Against a flak, hull health becomes irrelevant. The reason we see so many pyramidions is because they can combine the two. Now I'm not going to pretend everything was better long ago, but way back when in beta, carronades did the armor damage and gatling did the balloon damage. Now what was interesting about carronades doing armor damage is that it was closer range and far more dynamic. Your armor would be removed in slight chunks. If you planned it right and saw it coming you could deal with it both between their shots and their reloads. It kept a rhythm going. A good fight had a rhythm you had to manipulate to gain the lead and chip his hull to nothing. Right now, to win a fight, you either drain their armor into a boring death; kill them too fast to get in a fight; or disable them into a more different boring death. It's a slow paced game in every other regard. Now it's a multifaceted problem, but that doesn't make it unsolvable. It requires big shakeups to the way the game is played, but for the sake of fun.

That's the part that I truly believe up there ^
Now onto the theorycrafting on how to get things super fun again.

• Gatlings are the least interesting armor piercing. They set the other ship on a timer till you shoot them. It's too predictable, and doesn't lend itself to emergent properties.
• Hull health is too low for everything. The only ships it really matters on are the pyra and the galleon. On other ships, your armor's down, it's a crapshoot whether you live for another ten seconds to be gat'd down again or if you die from explosives there and then.
• Gat's being so ubiquitous, have set the range for long range engagements. There is no advantage to moving in closer, limiting tactical options.

Keep things civil.
Keep things focused on fun.
Let's have a nice clean discussion!

[Plasmarobo]

I think this might be the balance between realism and gameification at play.

Realism: Weapons have fantastic ranges and leathality. Often a single shot decides the fate of a vessel.
Gameification: My damage 10 weapon takes 10 hits to remove your 100 armor.

I am pretty new to the game, but I love the combinations!
So, gat and merc are the only real piercing weapons in the game right now, but there are so many other strategies!
This isn't one-on-one ship combat. I could do dual mercs while my ally does a Typhon and rule the sky. Or brawlers could sneak in under us and we die.
There are so many more axis for this game to be played along!

With really good matches, yeah it's going to take a long time. You are careful, precise, and know that a misstep spells your doom. 
But I only really feel like that in competitive play. Often times I'll go for more fun tactics like pinning someone to the ground then then Chute-vent ramming (a.k.a. Teabag of Destiny) into oblivion.
Or I will take my Galleon and use Hawacha's to ruin their day! (No guns = No damage from gat-flak).

Yeah, Muse could tweak health and armor and I'd be okay with it, but you've got options and I consistently play a wide variety of matches: From 2 minute death tornadoes to twenty minute sniper-fests.

I think it could change or not, and either way, I'd still love this game.

[Rainer Zu Fall]

I think the main problem is that people don't dare to use other strategies. Everyone just wants to rush in, shoot until the enemy dies and keep on doing that until they win. That's not how you should play this game. Just my opinion.

Depending on the map there are so many other choices! Do a far range Galleon with Lumberjacks or a Spire with a heavy flak and merc. Or go into CQC with a flamer-carronade squid on those thight cloudy maps. But to win with them you need to know some different tactics except for rushing to the enemy and shooting. To learn them you just have to try! Don't see your losses as "Oh my god I'm so bad", try to enjoy them so you can learn from them. Reflect why you lost! There are many possibilities to win against two gat/flak pyras. Don't just blame them!

Also speak with your co-captain. Don't just join match and instantly press ready. That's why this button is called "ready" - you press it as soon as you're good to go, which implements talking about your tactics. I've seen so many people lately yelling "ready! ready!" and then leaving the game because they see they're losing. That's a pity because I'm sure they could do better if they just took their time.
But that might be a fault of the modern gaming industry too, only focusing on quick one man armies in games.

[Squash]

Sorry Queso, gatt+flak isn't going anywhere until there's more piercing options.

[Echoez]

Double Carronade Pyra, Double Merc Pyra, Carronade/Mortar Pyra, Carronade/Banshee Junker, All Banshee Squid, Merc/Flak Pyra, Double Merc side Junker with a CArronade/Banshee other side.

There's lots of stuff that can be used, people are just bored to learn how to use them effectively. Though I do agree the gatling is a boring weapon for a gunner cause if they are realy good, it's a waste of their talent, I know that I got bored of it after 5 tries and always take the Flak or Mortar ( can't aim it though ) on any Gat/Explosive combo ship now if I'm gungineering.

[Queso]

Sorry Queso, gatt+flak isn't going anywhere until there's more piercing options.

I'm not saying gat flak IS the issue, but it certainly is a symptom. To able to win a fight consistently these days, the best option has been to kill them as quickly as possible. Gat flak just happens to be the best at doing this. The issue, in my opinion, is that getting the quickest kill is almost always the best way to win. Disabling simply takes too long and opens you up to attack. Hit and run strategy results in the attack taking more damage than the target. The quick kill may be boring, but as long as it's the best strategy, people will constantly use it, reducing game depth, and making it less fun for everyone.

[Rainer Zu Fall]

I'm not saying gat flak IS the issue, but it certainly is a symptom. To able to win a fight consistently these days, the best option has been to kill them as quickly as possible. Gat flak just happens to be the best at doing this. The issue, in my opinion, is that getting the quickest kill is almost always the best way to win. Disabling simply takes too long and opens you up to attack. Hit and run strategy results in the attack taking more damage than the target. The quick kill may be boring, but as long as it's the best strategy, people will constantly use it, reducing game depth, and making it less fun for everyone.

No. You don't have to use gat/flak these to win. You can win with so much more. And it's really fun too, because you need to think and really need to use everything you have.
But that's what makes it so interesting. A Lumberjack Galleon can be devastating if there's just 2 gat/flak Pyras coming.

Gat/flak isnt always the quick kill. It's just the easiest. And since most people use the same ship and tactics it's mostly effective since they need to be in the same range.
Why not use tactics? Your environment? Different ranges? There's so much more, people!

Double Carronade Pyra, Double Merc Pyra, Carronade/Mortar Pyra, Carronade/Banshee Junker, All Banshee Squid, Merc/Flak Pyra, Double Merc side Junker with a CArronade/Banshee other side.
There's lots of stuff that can be used, people are just bored to learn how to use them effectively.

Totally agreed, same as I said before!

Though I do agree the gatling is a boring weapon for a gunner cause if they are realy good, it's a waste of their talent, I know that I got bored of it after 5 tries and always take the Flak or Mortar ( can't aim it though ) on any Gat/Explosive combo ship now if I'm gungineering.

That's why I like my gunner on the flak: You can vary the different ammo types. Heavy is always the best for beginners, agreed. But charged, burst, incendiary (even tried lochnagar once) are so much better in a gat/flak pyra fight. You don't just have to simply put the crosshair on the enemy and press the fire-button.

[Echoez]

Also, you have to not confine your tactics to just a singe ship's loadout, that's a bad thing.

For example, I just had a match where I took a Squid with a Carronade front and 2 Banshees, was spotting targets for my Galleon ally to take them down from afar all while doing a little disabling myself, popping balloons, taring them all while they couldn't point their guns at me and our Galleon ally was raining death on them. There's many manu combinations in this game, some are just more risky than the Gat/Flak, hence, Metagame is born.

It's not the best, it's just the most 'effective' in a sense that it works and it's easy to carry out.

PS: It was my second time flying a Squid.

[Queso]

What I'm trying to say is that anything that takes down ships that fast isn't fun. Gat flak just being the easiest example. Balance is secondary to fun (but a necessity in long term game health and fun), and being shot down that fast by anything isn't fun. I never want to be able to shoot something down without it being able to fight back. That's incredibly boring. I don't want to get shot down like that either. It's not impossible to win against people with these super high DPS ships, it's not even that hard, but it just isn't all that fun. It doesn't matter if it's balanced and the metagame shifts away for a time, because it will come back and it won't be fun again.

There's a good example I have from my days in tf2. There was a weapon called Natascha. It was a minigun for the heavy. Every time you got hit it slowed you down for a brief period of time. Originally it stacked with itself, causing the slowdown to be inconsistent as some bullets hit and some missed. Now this was terribly unfun as you had no idea how fast you would be moving at any given point. However, from a gameplay standpoint it was perfectly balanced. Now they could have left it as it was and been done, but people were having a bad time. So valve changed it so it would apply a constant amount of slowdown whenever you were getting hit by any amount of bullets from it. Still balanced, but a lot more fun for everyone. If I was complaining about the balance I would be on any other number of the forum threads here.

[naufrago]

Erm, just out of curiosity, has the topic of slightly lowering the gat's damage come up (1-2 pierce damage per shot less)? Would that ruin its ability to take down armor? I realize 1-2 pierce damage is actually a significant portion of its dps, which is why I'm curious.

[Echoez]

Yeah, I will be forced to agree since you put it like this.

Gat/Explosive weapon is pretty boring, I agree with this. Then again I wasn't here before it happened, so I have no idea how it was. Personaly I wouldn't mind if the Gat/Flak combo was nerfed, it would enable smaller ships to stand more chances against the brawlers and it might even make the Spire viable

[Squash]

If I understand correctly what Queso is saying is that the damage output of weapons are disproportionately high compared to the survivability of ships. I don't agree with this, but I think that's what he's saying.

[Echoez]

If I understand correctly what Queso is saying is that the damage output of weapons are disproportionately high compared to the survivability of ships. I don't agree with this, but I think that's what he's saying.

It isn't? Armor goes down like nothing if a Gat is pointed at you and health is wiped instanly after armor goes down from a barrage of explosives while you can do nothing to bring it up fast enough cause even the spanner has a limit and most ships can't dodge gatling fire that easily since it's a raycast weapon.

I think what he is trying to say is that weapon damage types are attributed to the wrong weapons, the gatling is the main armor stripper, it's the most boring weapon ever and it's the easiest to aim at your enemy. Just an example of what I think he is trying to say at least.

Uninteresting gameplay is his concern.

[Squash]

An easier to use armor piercer? Definitely the merc. The gattling gun takes a while, it takes almost a complete clip to strip the armor off most ships, and if even a small number miss it needs to reload and fire more before the armor drops. This is also after a ship gets into gattling gun range which isn't easy against some builds. I just don't see it as a problem I guess.

[Echoez]

An easier to use armor piercer? Definitely the merc. The gattling gun takes a while, it takes almost a complete clip to strip the armor off most ships, and if even a small number miss it needs to reload and fire more before the armor drops. This is also after a ship gets into gattling gun range which isn't easy against some builds. I just don't see it as a problem I guess.

It's not overpowered, it's just not interesting. This is what the OP is talking about. The current armor strippers are not all that fun, they are basic, plain weapons and very easy to use and they are a very basic component of killing other ships cause nothing is quite as effective at taking down armor like these two. Of course, there are many choices as I stated earlier, but the OP just thinks that these specific two are the most boring and un-fun we could have.