Author Topic: Achievement system flaw  (Read 35732 times)

Offline knoxi

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Re: Achievement system flaw
« Reply #30 on: May 15, 2013, 11:48:24 am »
Please, I really want to hear from a dev on why they make people complete frustrating achievements to make progress in ranks. It is not fun to do and that completely defeats the point of playing a game.

(EDIT): I just wanted to also add that I feel sorry for the people who have to crew with me while I toil away at getting achievements. It can not be very fun for them either..but what choice do I have if I want progress?

Erm, you can't rank up, therefore there is no point to playing the game? Yet you really enjoy playing the Spire ... ... ... then play the Spire, as obviously winning is whats important to you, not learning how to win in the various ships that are available. If you cannot learn to use the weapons available and the different attributes on the Goldfish then why should your rank which measures your capabilities across ALL ships go up?

If anything you should be petitioning for ranks to be "ship specific", for those people who only want to use certain vessels. But then you'd simply hit the objection that the game isn't made for the minority of people who have ship preferences, it's made to be played with other people and Role Ranks serve as a way to judge capability across all ships ... no crew wants to find out their rank 10, can only pilot, gun or repair a limited number of ships.

When that arguement failed, you could then try arguing you cannot complete the Goldfish achievements because the ship is bad, or the achievements are too hard. But then you'd hit the objection that this could not be, because many other people have clearly managed it.

Instead you've gone with the argument that the Achievement system is flawed because it stopped someone who couldn't achieve from ranking up. Really...? Because to me that sounds like it's doing a stellar job of accurately maintaining a valid record of a Crewmens overall capability.

I can understand that it would be awesome to have a system that tracked Time spent, or Wins and incremented a statistic to reward people for their dedication or success. But you're trying to suggest that a system which tracks your capability as a Gunner, Pilot and Engineer should not be based on proving that you have certain capabilities to fufill those generic roles - totally defeating the point of role ranks, for the sole purpose of not frustrating you.

I'm sorry, but life is hard, and being good at things is difficult. Don't expect to be rewarded because you can't or don't want to do something.

How bout making a positive suggestion ... like a title system that rewards infamy? Or ship skins based on kills with a given vessel? Or simply describe how the "ROLE RANK" system can be improved without having to make it appease people who just arn't good enough in their roles without relying on a certain ship or a certain setup.

(EDIT:) If you'd had spent the time you had on this thread to instead ask for help and gather a capable crew who could've imparted their experience onto you, you'd probably already have the ranks you're grinding for. You ask what choice you have if you want to progress ... the blunt and simple answer is, "improve".

Offline GrimWinter

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Re: Achievement system flaw
« Reply #31 on: May 15, 2013, 01:16:58 pm »
Glad I found this topic before making one of my own! ;)

I personally like the way the leveling system works in this game but some friends of mine dislike it a good bit, so I'm definitely interested in how everyone else feels.

I like that it isn't a linear task of just playing game after game and that you need to do a bit more to gain levels, it makes leveling more interesting and also it gives achievements purpose (I never really found much interest in achievements before). Its good that they encourage people to do different things, the main negative that I see is on the extreme end of that though. People desperately trying to get achievements so they can level can cause some confusion for people playing with them and throw everyone off. A primary example of this was when I played with a gunner that was running around not accomplishing much when our ship was getting much, after the game I learned this was because he had a fire extinguisher for his tool so he could get a multi classing achievement.

Its alright if I know to work around things like that, and most of the other achievements are for the most part ok, but things like that can be a bit painful to deal with when the person trying to get achievements doesn't even say anything about it.

Offline HamsterIV

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Re: Achievement system flaw
« Reply #32 on: May 15, 2013, 01:18:15 pm »
SilentHaven why do you want to level up?

Is it for the respect of your crew?
Because if you are a good captain they will respect you after one game regardless of your level.

Is it the awe of others?
Because if you pull amazing maneuvers and carry games you will have that as well.

Is it to be seen as an authority on subject matter?
Well with this one having a high level actually helps. But in the ongoing meta and tactical discussions we have I haven't seen any one "pull rank." Some times we deffer to another player but that is because we have played with them and have seen first hand how much better at this game they are.

Is it to climb the ladder and earn your spot among the top players?
Because GOI doesn't work like that, there is no ELO match making system and our competitive scene doesn't care what level you are.

Is it because you are the type of person who wants to play a game to completion?
Then you should also be the type of person who likes obscure challenges and doing stupid things for the sake of achievements.

This may sound like hypocrisy coming from a lev 8 pilot, but high levels don't matter. Some of us have contemplated starting new accounts so we can have the thrill of scoring multiple achievements in the same match, or bribing muse to artificially lower our levels so new people won't be as scared of us. Enjoy your time as a level 1. It doesn't last very long and as stated earlier you will probably get to level 4 or 5 by accident.

Offline Queso

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Re: Achievement system flaw
« Reply #33 on: May 15, 2013, 03:53:58 pm »
All I ever associate with a level is a ton of time spent grinding. It's not my thing so I don't do it, but it gives you challenges if you get a bit bored in your average match.

Offline SilentHaven

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Re: Achievement system flaw
« Reply #34 on: May 15, 2013, 04:26:11 pm »
Yes, I knew I would get one of you types who will just simply say. "Welp, you suck, get better."( I mean namely you Knoxi) You did not even look at the entire conversation as a whole, just read my last post with one point and did not even bother to read everything before making a condescending comment. (Did it make you feel good? XD) My whole point you did not bother reading earlier is that the achievement system is only reflecting people who go out of their way to grind, and that is it. Yes I suck at the goldfish apparently and I should improve on that..but why should I have to improve on that right now at the very start before I am allowed to get to the other achievements that I might be much better at and more capable of doing? This is not a reflection of my abilities as a whole at all but my abilities at one single ship. Not being able to do one achievement should not stop me from attempting others to show that I can be a good pilot, gunner, or engineer. This is why I would like to see the achievements opened up to be done in any order so I can go do the achievements I am capable of and be able to do them naturally as I play naturally..without having to go out of my way to try to accomplish them just so I can get to others I want to try. Next time, please try reading a bit more, okay Knoxi? This was never just about me and what I want either, I am not even the one who started this thread XD and I know others must feel the same way.

As for why I even want the ranks. Well there are several reasons. For one I am a completionist, I want to get everything I can in a game, but I would prefer to tackle things naturally first and then once I have a lot of experience at the game then go challenge myself, not be forced to do something I do not want to do from the very start when I am supposed to have options available to me. Second, I like having a good rank to show that people can trust me. This is even more important to me since I love being captain and do not have a mic. A higher rank to some people will give me some measure of their trust if they never played with me before. Also I will have less arguments about who should be captain or not if I had the rank to back up that I can be competent.

Look, some people are acting like I am being entitled or selfish about this. But in the very beginning all I was doing was putting input into what I saw was a mistake that could be easily fixed. I doubt anything might ever really be done about it but I still wanted to at least say something and make what I feel are some good points. Maybe by doing this I can help avoid this problem in the adventure mode which I am looking forward to. I am just making a debate here, so please, stop being condescending about this just because you do not agree with me. Thank you.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2013, 04:29:10 pm by SilentHaven »

Offline SilentHaven

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Re: Achievement system flaw
« Reply #35 on: May 15, 2013, 04:37:45 pm »
Glad I found this topic before making one of my own! ;)

I personally like the way the leveling system works in this game but some friends of mine dislike it a good bit, so I'm definitely interested in how everyone else feels.

I like that it isn't a linear task of just playing game after game and that you need to do a bit more to gain levels, it makes leveling more interesting and also it gives achievements purpose (I never really found much interest in achievements before). Its good that they encourage people to do different things, the main negative that I see is on the extreme end of that though. People desperately trying to get achievements so they can level can cause some confusion for people playing with them and throw everyone off. A primary example of this was when I played with a gunner that was running around not accomplishing much when our ship was getting much, after the game I learned this was because he had a fire extinguisher for his tool so he could get a multi classing achievement.

Its alright if I know to work around things like that, and most of the other achievements are for the most part ok, but things like that can be a bit painful to deal with when the person trying to get achievements doesn't even say anything about it.

I do not mind having to do achievements to rank either. I just want them to be opened up to be done in any order, that way I do not have to feel like I have to do them right away so that my games can have any rank progression.  Sure I can play the game with whatever lay out I want..but the longer I wait to do what is being required of me the longer I will have to wait to rank up, which makes all the effort and good game play I do otherwise seem like such a waste..

Offline HamsterIV

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Re: Achievement system flaw
« Reply #36 on: May 15, 2013, 05:17:31 pm »
This is even more important to me since I love being captain and do not have a mic. A higher rank to some people will give me some measure of their trust if they never played with me before.

Well there is your problem, mute captains are never as trusted as talking ones. I would rather fly with a level 1 talking captain than a level 6 mute, and I am sure that sentiment is echoed my many other players here. It is less of an issue with mute crew since they aren't expected to issue commands. You do both yourself and your crew a disservice by taking the captain's slot without a mic. Even if you have the typing speed of court stenographer voice communication is always preferable.

I can't really comment on the completionist aspect of gaming since it has never been a major draw for me. If you ask nicely in the server lobby for help getting a certain achievement I find many people are willing to help. Even if it is just saying "I really suck on the goldfish but I need 3 more wins for an achievement."

I do not mind having to do achievements to rank either. I just want them to be opened up to be done in any order, that way I do not have to feel like I have to do them right away so that my games can have any rank progression.  Sure I can play the game with whatever lay out I want..but the longer I wait to do what is being required of me the longer I will have to wait to rank up, which makes all the effort and good game play I do otherwise seem like such a waste..

You might want to check your future achievements, I think I remember Muse saying you can earn points towards future achievements before you get to that achievement.

EDIT: My bad, my memory must be failing me.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2013, 05:44:05 pm by HamsterIV »

Offline Clara Skyborn

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Re: Achievement system flaw
« Reply #37 on: May 15, 2013, 05:34:32 pm »
I haven't jumped in before now because I'm interested in getting a variety of different perspectives on this, but I should say something before we all retread the same ground over and over too many times.

The leveling system is definitely unusual in that it's a hybrid of achievement and mission systems, and for the most part I'm satisfied with how it's working. It's meant to encourage experimentation HOPEFULLY without requiring any behavior that's outright detrimental, and while it's meant to take a while to progress through, you shouldn't have to go too far out of your way to do it, and you shouldn't have to grind. In other words, it should nudge you toward varied but not unnatural play. The system itself is not likely to change.

What I do want to hear about though are the points of frustration where a particular achievement is a roadblock to progress, or encourages unnatural or detrimental play. Sometimes this is due to a bug (ramming, anyone? Sorry...), sometimes it's due to balance changes and the evolution of meta, sometimes it's just down to a bad guess, and I've certainly made plenty of missteps before. I'm always collecting feedback and have made frequent adjustments to the achievement objectives, and I'm working on another pass right now in preparation for new levels. (Also sorry about the gunner extinguishing...again, down to a bad prediction about balance. I can't remember when I looked at that one, but if it's not removed already it'll be gone in the next update.)

So please, tell me about the achievements like that one that you feel are unfair or broken, and I'll take a look and do my best to address them.

Thanks!

EDIT:

You might want to check your future achievements, I think I remember Muse saying you can earn points towards future achievements before you get to that achievement.

Nope, this is incorrect. All of the progression achievements are gated and you can only progress on the currently unlocked one.

Some future non-progression achievement tracks will be un-gated, though, so you can complete them in any order. The only one that currently works like this is the Tutorial track.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2013, 05:36:57 pm by -Muse- Clara Skyborn »

Offline GrimWinter

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Re: Achievement system flaw
« Reply #38 on: May 15, 2013, 05:43:05 pm »
Awesome, thanks for replying to this and commenting on that extinguisher achievement. Muse has definitely made it into my list of favorite developers right with Bungie, Riot, and Supergiant. Keep up the good work :)

As far as other achievements, I know there are a few on my list right now I'll probably end up having to go out of my way to get but they aren't really harmful to my experience in any way (put out fires 100 times with fire extinguishers, 8 wins +40 repairs on scrap, 60 hull repairs on squid, etc). Only other one that isn't in there is a spotting achievement that I just realized requires me to be level 5 to get. :P

Offline Charon

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Re: Achievement system flaw
« Reply #39 on: May 15, 2013, 05:48:45 pm »
Here is something to think about. If people are saying that rank does not matter, maybe that is because rank is not accurately displaying a person's experience and skill in their role?

It doesn't display your experience and skill. I view it like a certification. It doesn't necessarily indicate any level of skill, it just shows that you have met the basic criteria to pass.

In short, your level doesn't show your skill at all, and I think a lot of us like it that way.

Offline Sammy B. T.

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Re: Achievement system flaw
« Reply #40 on: May 15, 2013, 06:01:03 pm »
I would like to echo  Hamster's point concerning the mic. My original use of the friend list was to identify players who played as pilot and talked (I initially only engineered). I wasn't doing this on skill level in fact, I played with many terrible captains simply because at least they were telling me orders. Even if I knew the captain was fantastic, the inability to communicate in a game that is 85% teamwork is generally a deal breaker.

In my gameplay, I hardly paid attention to the achievements until level six. You can definitely get quite a few levels without having to actively plan out your achievements.

If I may complain about one achievement though. Lochnagar kills in general seem a little mean. The round is only almost viable on a handful of guns and even the extra damage given by the round is less than two of the vanilla rounds.

Offline GrimWinter

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Re: Achievement system flaw
« Reply #41 on: May 15, 2013, 06:07:18 pm »
Here is something to think about. If people are saying that rank does not matter, maybe that is because rank is not accurately displaying a person's experience and skill in their role?

It doesn't display your experience and skill. I view it like a certification. It doesn't necessarily indicate any level of skill, it just shows that you have met the basic criteria to pass.

In short, your level doesn't show your skill at all, and I think a lot of us like it that way.
To add on with what Charon is saying, I don't think rank showing skill is a good thing at all anyways. It just spawns people that try to pull rank superiority and develops egos in people. It is much better to have skill as a more abstract thing and leave it to be decided on the battlefield.

Offline SilentHaven

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Re: Achievement system flaw
« Reply #42 on: May 15, 2013, 06:07:58 pm »
Ah, I misunderstood what Clara Skyborn just tried to say and had to delete an entire post. XD

Anyways, thank you for lending and ear and filling us in Clara. Since you are asking for our input I think achievements like "destroy 20 goldfish" are not the sort of achievements that should block your progression. You have no way of controlling what ships you are playing against unless you have friends so completing these sort of tasks can take a very long time. Also, as I have mentioned before, I do not think it is right to force a player to get good at ships in a certain order when it comes to the experience track for the pilot. The goldfish might not be a person's strong suit and simply being bad at just one ship may bar a person from ever progressing further. It is a shame that it seems that the progression achievements will remain gated. It is frustrating when you know you have accomplished the locked achievements a dozen times over but you are not making any progress just because you can not complete one or two achievements still in your way. This I feel is what causes people to do unnatural play, because they want to start working on getting those time consuming achievements out of the way sooner rather than later.

Offline HamsterIV

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Re: Achievement system flaw
« Reply #43 on: May 15, 2013, 06:20:24 pm »
I would like to echo  Hamster's point concerning the mic. My original use of the friend list was to identify players who played as pilot and talked (I initially only engineered). I wasn't doing this on skill level in fact, I played with many terrible captains simply because at least they were telling me orders. Even if I knew the captain was fantastic, the inability to communicate in a game that is 85% teamwork is generally a deal breaker.

In my gameplay, I hardly paid attention to the achievements until level six. You can definitely get quite a few levels without having to actively plan out your achievements.

If I may complain about one achievement though. Lochnagar kills in general seem a little mean. The round is only almost viable on a handful of guns and even the extra damage given by the round is less than two of the vanilla rounds.

Yeah that was my initial use of the friends list too. I now have a couple non talkers on my friends list but they are damn good engineers and gunners.

As for the Lochnagar, it was deadly back when heavy flack ruled the skies. I think you are misreading the description 150% damage is added to the round meaning that a locknigar round does a total of 250% base dammage. It is still less than 2 charged rounds 130%*2 = 260% base dammage but it is delivered in one chunk and gives the engineers no time to put that crucial mallet whack in.

Offline RearAdmiralZill

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Re: Achievement system flaw
« Reply #44 on: May 15, 2013, 06:39:00 pm »
I got the lochnagar achievement all in one sitting of goio gameplay. It's not hard at all to do, and this was after it was nerfed so that you cannot move the gun. Gunners are important.