Author Topic: Achievement system flaw  (Read 38363 times)

Offline Shinycharizard

  • Member
  • Salutes: 1
    • 4
    • View Profile
Achievement system flaw
« on: May 14, 2013, 01:28:21 am »
Firstly, this whole system for achievements and leveling is ok, especially considering the rewards are only cosmetic. I do have one major problem. The challenges have to be done in a specific order. This pidgenholes me into doing things I dont want to do/arent good at in order to advance in level. basically what the game tells me is that i cant do any of the other pilot experience challenges cause im no good with the goldfish.

I dont want to feel like i have to be forced to do specific things in a specific order, it goes against the idea of setting up your ship or loadout the way you want. Make it so we can do the challenges in any order. if you were intending to have them progress higher and higher in difficulty, having a chain of challenges with similar but increasing requirements works. but when they involve different tools, weapons, ships, ect., it makes sense to let us do them in the order we want.

Offline N-Sunderland

  • Member
  • Salutes: 281
    • [Duck]
    • 15 
    • 45
    • 23 
    • View Profile
Re: Achievement system flaw
« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2013, 07:57:23 am »
The achievement system's purpose is to make sure you try different things. You don't like the Goldfish? You should try flying it more, it's a really fun ship. Without the achievement system, you might never bother. It helps you try out different guns, ammo types, tools, etc. That's really important in a game like this.

Offline knoxi

  • Member
  • Salutes: 4
    • [DvG]
    • 23
    • View Profile
Re: Achievement system flaw
« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2013, 08:09:49 am »
You say Potato ... I say Tomato.

You say Flaw ... I say Feature.  ;)

Offline SilentHaven

  • Member
  • Salutes: 1
    • 1
    • View Profile
Re: Achievement system flaw
« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2013, 10:11:37 am »
(I had originally posted this under suggestions and feedback but it was locked since this thread was already here.)

Maybe this has been addressed once before already but I really must say, the idea of having to go through achievements in order to rank up is very annoying to me. I never liked the idea of having to go out of your way just to accomplish some silly milestone, but this ranking system literally forces you into it. I am sure Muse had their reasons for this but there has to be a way to make this idea more bearable. How about instead of having to complete the achievements in a certain order, players are able to complete them in whatever order they happen to do it?

Here is an example of why this system annoys me. For the pilot role the very first experience achievement you must accomplish is "Fighting Fish." This means that you are pretty much forced to fight with the goldfish for at least 10 battles before you can even move on to the ship you really want to use. Two achievements later you are then forced to fight with the squid. What is the point of being free to pick and choose which ships to use if we are pretty much told what ships we have to use if we want to advance in roles? It is not just ships we are told when to use, but tools and weaponry too when it comes to some of the other achievements. I get it that Muse is wanting to encourage the players to try out everything, but why not let us decide when and where we use the stuff available to us? Please open up some of the achievement trees so that we can accomplish them in an order that comes naturally to our play styles and not in a way that makes us go out of our way from the get go.

If there is some reason for the way things are now please let me know of it? I would be greatly appreciative to know there is a rhyme and reason for this set up. Thank you. ^_^

Offline SilentHaven

  • Member
  • Salutes: 1
    • 1
    • View Profile
Re: Achievement system flaw
« Reply #4 on: May 14, 2013, 10:18:05 am »
The achievement system's purpose is to make sure you try different things. You don't like the Goldfish? You should try flying it more, it's a really fun ship. Without the achievement system, you might never bother. It helps you try out different guns, ammo types, tools, etc. That's really important in a game like this.

I am sorry, but saying the Goldfish is really fun is very subjective. Why is it players have to be encouraged to try out everything? Isn't more important that we have fun and are able to play in the way that gives us the most enjoyment ie. with the ship we prefer? Besides, aren't the players forced to play with other ship designs already when they play as a crew member? Why not make it so that they are forced to play these ships once they are already in higher ranks and not from the get go when they are just starting?

Offline SilentHaven

  • Member
  • Salutes: 1
    • 1
    • View Profile
Re: Achievement system flaw
« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2013, 10:31:54 am »
Here is another idea. If you can not or will not make it so that the achievements can be done in any order, can you at least make it so that it does not take forever to go through each one? My favorite ship is the Spire, but it is going to take a very, very long time before I can get any credit for being good with it since I first have to win 10 times each with the Goldfish, Squid, Junker, and Galleon. That is a minimum of 40 battles! Not to mention all the other achievements which require me to use particular weapons like the flamethrower. I really do not want to have to wait that long before I can play my preferred ship the way I want to without feeling I am wasting opportunities to slowly raise my pilot rank.

I will reword this once again. The best way to fix this really is to just open up the achievement trees. Trust me, as long as the achievements are there people will go out of their way eventually to complete them. Especially if they have to in order to reach the highest ranks.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2013, 10:45:47 am by SilentHaven »

Offline SilentHaven

  • Member
  • Salutes: 1
    • 1
    • View Profile
Re: Achievement system flaw
« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2013, 11:09:51 am »
Beyond being forced to use ships and equipment in a particular order. The achievement system also makes you play the same map a few times in a row thanks to the map achievements. All players must first play Dunes and then Scraps, and then Water Hazard, etc. etc. Doing these maps out of this order gets you nothing. It does not matter if you played scraps 100 times, you still have to win there 8 more times later if you had not yet won 6 matches in Dunes. This makes a player feel like they have to get the maps out of the way and grind play them in order if rank matters at all to them, otherwise you get the feeling of achieving nothing...

Offline Linen

  • Member
  • Salutes: 17
    • 6
    • View Profile
Re: Achievement system flaw
« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2013, 11:19:18 am »
Don't want to fly a Goldfish? Don't want to use ANY pilot tools? Don't want to be forced to use ANY weapon you don't want. Don't want to get off the helm and repair things on the ship?

Congrats, you have 28 achievements still available to you. That's enough to make you a level 6 Aeronaught plus change. Coincidently that's my level. 140 hours of playing (Granted I have engineering and gunning achievements but I never farmed these, also I'm a serial idler).

AND AND AND this is only if you're a giant stickler who never wants to use a Goldfish, Pheonix Claw, Kerosene, Hydrogen, ever hit anything with a mallet EVER, use a Carronade, or use a Galleon. Do any of these and you can usually add another 5 to 10 achievements.

As Sunderland said. The gradient is there to encourage diversity and better play. Kind of like an expanded self taught tutorial. And after 140 hours of playing the game if you're still interested then theres a good chance you'll want to start experimenting.

Offline SilentHaven

  • Member
  • Salutes: 1
    • 1
    • View Profile
Re: Achievement system flaw
« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2013, 11:36:52 am »
Don't want to fly a Goldfish? Don't want to use ANY pilot tools? Don't want to be forced to use ANY weapon you don't want. Don't want to get off the helm and repair things on the ship?

Congrats, you have 28 achievements still available to you. That's enough to make you a level 6 Aeronaught plus change. Coincidently that's my level. 140 hours of playing (Granted I have engineering and gunning achievements but I never farmed these, also I'm a serial idler).

AND AND AND this is only if you're a giant stickler who never wants to use a Goldfish, Pheonix Claw, Kerosene, Hydrogen, ever hit anything with a mallet EVER, use a Carronade, or use a Galleon. Do any of these and you can usually add another 5 to 10 achievements.

As Sunderland said. The gradient is there to encourage diversity and better play. Kind of like an expanded self taught tutorial. And after 140 hours of playing the game if you're still interested then theres a good chance you'll want to start experimenting.

As I said before. Can't we be made to experiment later rather than now? Maybe when I am 140 hours in I might be ready to try other ships but right now I am a few hours in and I would really rather play the ship and lay out I prefer and I am comfortable with. I am a "newbie" after all, why should I be forced to use a ship I may suck at? Also, how many of those 28 achievements you mentioned are reachable with out being forced to use some weapon or tool you might not have wanted to use otherwise, or make you play in a map or game mode you might not have wanted to? I would not mind having to do it all eventually, but why decide for me that I must do them first while I am just getting into the game? From what I see the only achievement trees that do not in some way force how you would play the game are the career ones. All the others contain requirements that force you to change how you would otherwise play and you will have to grind and go out of your way to get them done first if you want to keep making progress.

(edit) For example, I like to use the spyglass, tar barrel, and kerosene with the pipe wrench to fix things. But nope, very early on I will be required to use the mallet instead and be "encouraged" to try out the phoenix claw and hydrogen canister even though they are pretty much unhelpful for a Spire captain...get where I am getting at?
« Last Edit: May 14, 2013, 11:41:15 am by SilentHaven »

Offline ATeddyBear

  • CA Mod
  • Salutes: 12
    • [HRD]
    • 11 
    • 12
    • 16 
    • View Profile
Re: Achievement system flaw
« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2013, 11:49:45 am »
I would like to point out that nothing is gained from leveling, well nothing beyond some cosmetic items. So the idea of being "forced" is a bit contrived. If your intent on having fun in your Spire then have fun in your Spire. Nothing is stopping you from doing that. Chances are you will fly other ships. You said it yourself that in the future you will most likely be ready to try new ships. When you ready to do that then that’s the time to try some of those achievements.

Something else to note is that achievements are just that, achievements/challenges. Challenges for you complete at your leisure, not a stringent requirement of gameplay.

Offline SilentHaven

  • Member
  • Salutes: 1
    • 1
    • View Profile
Re: Achievement system flaw
« Reply #10 on: May 14, 2013, 11:52:35 am »
I wanted to reiterate what I am trying to say one more time. I have no problem being encouraged to do all these different things that take me out of my comfort zone eventually. That is great, they are challenges and being challenged is what I want in a game. What I do not like is that if I ever want to gain any rank  I have to face these challenges in a certain order that heavily dictates how I should play and that playing in any other challenging way before the system says I am ready is technically a waste of effort.

Offline Gato Blanco

  • Member
  • Salutes: 8
    • 5
    • View Profile
Re: Achievement system flaw
« Reply #11 on: May 14, 2013, 12:01:01 pm »
Some of them are oddly specific.  Maps 1 for pilot requires you to ram (Ehh, ok) 20 components (A fair bit, but doable) on Dunes (?Que?) for an entry level achievement in that line.  The requirements are so specific its kinda creepy.

I understand that leveling all at once would defeat the purpose of the achievements a bit, but if I might put forth a suggestion: Activated Achievement Progress.  Or something spiffy sounding.  Basicly, you get to choose which achievements your shenanigans will count towards.  Sod the goldfish, want to pop baloons on the spire?  You can hit that first!  Just getting off a CP binge?  Roll up a DM based achieve.

The offset to this is already in place; many of the achievements become more difficult to pull off/simply take more time than earlier achievements.  If youre a sucker for punishment or you think the current achieve doesnt suit you, just switch it out, itll make the game a bit more interesting while suggesting new shenanigans to try.

And it will still make you fly the damn goldfish if you want to hit pilot lv11

Seriously, ramming 20 parts on dune makes me want to stab eyeballs.

Offline SilentHaven

  • Member
  • Salutes: 1
    • 1
    • View Profile
Re: Achievement system flaw
« Reply #12 on: May 14, 2013, 12:01:43 pm »
I would like to point out that nothing is gained from leveling, well nothing beyond some cosmetic items. So the idea of being "forced" is a bit contrived. If your intent on having fun in your Spire then have fun in your Spire. Nothing is stopping you from doing that. Chances are you will fly other ships. You said it yourself that in the future you will most likely be ready to try new ships. When you ready to do that then that’s the time to try some of those achievements.

Something else to note is that achievements are just that, achievements/challenges. Challenges for you complete at your leisure, not a stringent requirement of gameplay.

Contrived? "having an unnatural or false appearance or quality."

No I am not making stuff up or just pulling things out of thin air here. I really feel forced to go through these achievements in order because rank matters a bit to me and I hate the idea of playing matches without making any progress that mirrors my experience and ability. I do not know about you, but I am much more likely to trust a player to play out her/his role if he is a high rank and will often choose a person of a higher rank to team with then a person with a lower rank. That is the entire purpose of ranks after all, right? To know who is the more veteran players? How is being concerned about how rank is earned a "contrived" concern?

Offline SilentHaven

  • Member
  • Salutes: 1
    • 1
    • View Profile
Re: Achievement system flaw
« Reply #13 on: May 14, 2013, 12:07:10 pm »
Some of them are oddly specific.  Maps 1 for pilot requires you to ram (Ehh, ok) 20 components (A fair bit, but doable) on Dunes (?Que?) for an entry level achievement in that line.  The requirements are so specific its kinda creepy.

I understand that leveling all at once would defeat the purpose of the achievements a bit, but if I might put forth a suggestion: Activated Achievement Progress.  Or something spiffy sounding.  Basicly, you get to choose which achievements your shenanigans will count towards.  Sod the goldfish, want to pop baloons on the spire?  You can hit that first!  Just getting off a CP binge?  Roll up a DM based achieve.

The offset to this is already in place; many of the achievements become more difficult to pull off/simply take more time than earlier achievements.  If youre a sucker for punishment or you think the current achieve doesnt suit you, just switch it out, itll make the game a bit more interesting while suggesting new shenanigans to try.

And it will still make you fly the damn goldfish if you want to hit pilot lv11

Seriously, ramming 20 parts on dune makes me want to stab eyeballs.

Thank you! It is achievements like that one that also encourages a bunch of people to purposely throw away a game just so she/he can meet an achievement requirements. Making people have to ram people in dunes a bunch of times before he can move on to other things will just make a captain do nothing but ram in dunes until he finally meets that requirement, which is pretty unfair for the rest of his crew stuck for the ride.

Offline Linen

  • Member
  • Salutes: 17
    • 6
    • View Profile
Re: Achievement system flaw
« Reply #14 on: May 14, 2013, 12:14:21 pm »
Also, how many of those 28 achievements you mentioned are reachable with out being forced to use some weapon or tool you might not have wanted to use otherwise,

EVERY. SINGLE. ONE.

That was the entire point of my post. You can get to level 6 without having to use anything specific ever.

EVER.

Conservatively, and very averagely, based off my gameplay that's 50 hours or so of piloting and nothing else.

No one's forcing you to do anything. Others have already covered this. But it still doesn't matter cause you could fly a Spire with the same loadout every single game without ever using a pilot tool, engy tool, or ammo, and still reach my level.

Why even care about 1 locked Spire achievement when you have 28 achievements that you get just by playing the game. Hell most of them you'll get accidentally.

Make sense this time?