Recent Complaints and Whatnot That I've Seen

[Baelfire Ender]

I'll try and keep this on track. As a disclaimer, this is all I'VE seen. No idea what it's like for others.

Some on-going issues I've noticed in the game (pre-Alliance release to now):
-The tutorial doesn't give a fantastic idea of what all the guns are capable of. It was improved during the Alliance release to explain what a few guns can do, but it does not go into detail about the damage types.
-The same thing can be said for ammo types. Many of them have their lists of numbers stating what they do, but it doesn't give the best idea on what the ammo is capable of.
-Minor glitches having to do with ships' collision and I'm assuming latency. For example: when you randomly fall through the deck of the Mobula or off the tail-end of the Goldfish.
-Stacking is insane lately, making it more difficult for new players to pick up the game. Recommendation to fix below.
-Locked loadouts for ships. I understand that it's meant to give new players the basics before throwing the hard stuff at them, but it only seems to hurt them more. Recommendation to fix below.

Some on-going issues I've noticed in the game (Alliance release to now):
-Graveyard Rumble needs some sort of work done on it. I have no idea what's causing this: compared to maps like Red Sepulcher, I lost about 15 frames.
-Seraph Tempest Missiles do VERY little damage compared to other explosive guns, like the Manitcore Heavy Hwacha. They almost feel useless.
-I've had this discussion with others, but many feel like the Squid's changes done to the Hull Amour have had little to no effect on the Squid's ramming ability, since people ram using the balloon.

Potential fixes to these issues:
-Discard locked loadouts all together. And if not discard them... unlock the Goldfish, at least. I don't understand why the Galleon is unlocked but the Goldfish isn't.
-Create some sort of randomization system integral in the game. Swapping ships won't work as well because an entire crew can stay together on a ship. By sticking with your friends and friends only, the odds become that you stomp everyone, most of all the new players trying to learn. Make the veterans play more with the new people.

These are the only issues I see, and the only fixes I can think of. But this thread is totally open to addition!

[Richard LeMoon]

Crew shuffle won't work in practice. People will simply leave the match and reform. The stack will move from lobby to lobby instead of being dissolved.

Is Squid ramming a problem? If so, we are testing a lighter Squid in devapp right now that takes more damage and dishes less out.

[MightyKeb]

-Stacking is insane lately, making it more difficult for new players to pick up the game. Recommendation to fix below.

This has always been a part of guns of icarus. And the complaints about it have always been anecdotal, because muse either doesn't publish data on stacked matches, or doesn't have a way of filtering out levels in their match stats. Also,

-I've had this discussion with others, but many feel like the Squid's changes done to the Hull Amour have had little to no effect on the Squid's ramming ability, since people ram using the balloon.

Funny you mention this, because I find myself hull-ramming just as often as balloon ramming nowadays. The armor buff actually allows me to get one or two rams in without losing any perma.

That doesn't mean I agree with the squid changes above, though.

[Corporal Ravioli]

The stacking issue is rooted inside a much deeper population issue.

If there were enough players to satisfy more running lobbies, it would be significantly easier to naturally filter these players by their experience, or employ an engineered "tier" system that discourages matches that are significantly under or over a player's abilities. Problem is, there aren't enough players to satisfy this kind of system.

This is compounded by the fact that experienced players are drawn to other experienced players. People want to /win/, and it appears to me that most of the prestigious players don't really care how that happens. There are plenty of occasions where the (perhaps only) lobby has only one full ship, and it's full of veterans. They can't be bothered to split their experience amongst the lobby evenly (and actually get a match started) because they don't want to lose their security; they /risk losing/ in a fair setting.

We know how frustrating it is to learn and later mentor new players. Because of that, the chief tactic is of /aversion/ rather than /immersion/. And obviously so - even though I do my best to join green ships and counterbalance experienced players, there's still the odd ship or player that bust my resolve. I positively despise stackers, but it's hard to level the playing field if you're not having fun doing it, nor when it's a dire cause to pursue alone.

It's hard to satisfy the core value of this video game when there aren't enough players to effectively realize it. But at the end of the day it's a /cultural/ problem over a mechanical one. The driving concept of the game promotes camaraderie and synthesis. You're not going to get around this by shoehorning in a countercultural mechanic that separates players. As has been mentioned, they're just going to find a new match - or hell - a new video game to play.

[Baelfire Ender]

I appreciate all the feedback I've been receiving! Thank you for the replies! I have been able to check out the recent changes done with the Squid and can see how those are working on making the Squid a bit more balanced. And now I can see what you guys mean, which the population being so low that stacking becomes a necessity-ish.

I still feel like that is one of the issues that should be addressed, but it is improbable with the game's current state. Despite this, just trying to disperse the more experienced players to the new ships would help in some manner. Not saying it'll be an immediate change, or even a fix, but it's a good start, right?

Again, thank you for the replies! This thread is still open for additional comments!

[Corporal Ravioli]

And now I can see what you guys mean, which the population being so low that stacking becomes a necessity-ish.

I want to clarify just in case I was misunderstood. I'm not saying it's a necessity(ish) to stack. I'm saying it's a side effect of experienced players wanting to /win/, not necessarily every player having fun equally. It was a point of criticism when I said that the primary tactic was aversion.

just trying to disperse the more experienced players to the new ships would help in some manner.

This is what I'm saying. The challenge is that it disrupts the culture of the game. More players would solve this, but I'm afraid the population may never climb enough to reach the desired effect. 

[Richard LeMoon]

I disagree with you 99%. Vets play with each other most of the time for the same reason a group of friends new to the game play on the same ship. The "gotta win, so play with the best people I can find" mentality is very very rare.

The other reason vets play with each other is you don't play a game to be frustrated. GOI can be a VERY frustrating game playing with new players. An easy way to avoid frustration is to play on friends' ships.

There is no "culture of the game". It is just people coming online to try to have fun playing a game. The easiest way to do that is to hang out with friends. Full stop.

I have been asking for a voluntary handicap system for some time now, buffing the other team, a certain ship, nerfing your own, whatever. A lot of vets would use this, since self nerf through silly builds is quite common. This is because a stomp isn't fun either.

[Corporal Ravioli]

The "gotta win, so play with the best people I can find" mentality is very very rare.

So when I'm in a lobby with level 1-25 players as a 38 pilot, a 45+ that I've never played with enters and /immediately/ repositions to my ship, it's not because they want to win? I have been a witness to this behavior time and time again.

A lot of vets would use this, since self nerf through silly builds is quite common. This is because a stomp isn't fun either.

I mostly agree with you here, and partake in the same behavior myself. I will say though, I still see stacked meta ships /all the time/.

The other reason vets play with each other is you don't play a game to be frustrated. GOI can be a VERY frustrating game playing with new players. An easy way to avoid frustration is to play on friends' ships.

And make it infinitely more frustrating for those who are still in the process of learning. I mentioned this aversion strategy in a previous post.

There is no "culture of the game". It is just people coming online to try to have fun playing a game. The easiest way to do that is to hang out with friends. Full stop.

You may be assigning a more specific context to the word "culture" than I am here. Having friends/familiars in-game and choosing who to play with /is/ culture. Behavior that is not directly propagated by un-contestable game features /is/ culture. The fact of the matter is that the game promotes teamwork without regulating who you actually do that with, and the response to that is that proven players tend to stick together. That has no implication of superiority or seniority; it naturally emerges from the architecture that we have been provided.

I think this is behavior /good/ thing. The issue is that there aren't enough players to keep that behavior from making it seriously unfun for anyone else that plays against the stacked crews that appear. This could be resolved by spreading the talent - /immersion/ instead of /aversion/. Yes, it's challenging, but it's also building everyone up together for long-term rewards at the (immense) sacrifice of game-to-game camaraderie. This is exactly why I believe that it is not possible. It sure as hell doesn't keep me from discussing it however.


Footnotes:
To pose another example of my application of culture: suggesting proven loadouts to new players /is/ culture. There are no systems in place to guarantee or even ebb a player into taking an effective kit. Other players teaching them the dogma is outside of the game's architecture, but imperative to the actual gameplay. Hopefully these examples help pin down exactly what I'm talking about.

As well, I clarify in voice-chat a lot when these kinds of discussions come up and I'll do it now: I hope that I don't sound like a jerk or whiner when I bring up things like this. I genuinely enjoy conversations about engineering and design, and particularly how behavior emerges from and influences interactive systems. Sometimes my points land a little funny and it makes me sound like a more combative person that I'm actually trying to be. I probably don't have to mention this now but here I go anyways.

[Richard LeMoon]

I see what you mean by culture now. I don't really agree, since that is pretty much the 'culture' of all games, be it online or real life sports. So, more of a human culture thing than a GOI culture thing. That makes it pretty impossible to overcome.

I think the GOI culture is to be more friendly and helpful than other games. We often go the extra mile, even while 'stacking' with our friends. I'll often give the other team advice on what to do with their ships while we are in a match. Sometimes they even beat me after they take that advice. I have seen quite a few other players do that as well. I don't know how common that is in other games, but I feel it is a defining factor in our culture.

[Solidusbucket]

I don't know how common that is in other games, but I feel it is a defining factor in our culture.

Its not common in nearly any other competetive game. The only other time I have seen this as a possiblity is in Starcraft and BroodWar - where the lobby was set up that everyone could "talk" (text) to eachother.

But yea, fuck you scrub.

[Narayan]

some mobas seem to give rank and then spereate people in matchmaker based on that, seems pretty fair.  Guns doesn't have that kinda pop tho, but if we did something like that would be good. Guns is more like a middle school dodgeball fight. The weak get picked last for teams. We all know the consequences of a low level player in a high level match. Even a noob not on your ship, but on an ally ship can cost you the match. Slot lock would help fix the stacking. Most vets imo would choose ai over a noob in a high level lobby, freeing up the noobs for their own lobby.