Author Topic: Captain Centric Game Modes  (Read 5942 times)

Offline HamsterIV

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Captain Centric Game Modes
« on: March 29, 2017, 04:17:07 pm »
I would like to make the argument that Sky Ball and to a lesser extent Crazy King and VIP are too focused on the captain to provide an enjoyable experience for the rest of the crew. I am not proposing any solutions, but I think it needs to be said that the reason these game modes are not popular is because out of a lobby of 16 people only the actions of 4 of them really affect the outcome of the game. In Death Match and King of the Hill games good gunnery or good engineering can be a deciding factor, but in Sky Ball and Crazy King the crew are almost passive spectators to the Captain's skill and knowledge.

Muse probably thought these game modes would be fun because similar mechanics work in games where individual players control their positioning and tactics. However GOIO is not that sort of game.

Going forward I think Muse needs to put more thought into how new game modes will be experienced by the non captain players. If there exists a mechanic that can be exploited by not engaging, then the crew should have something better to do than keep up with a kerosene burn.

Offline Naoura

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Re: Captain Centric Game Modes
« Reply #1 on: March 29, 2017, 04:46:07 pm »
I can't poke any holes in the theory, but I also can't find many answers for the issue at hand.

Skyball I fully and completely agree with you on. The only times I've really enjoyed/known what was going on were the few times I've captained on it. The others it was a mildly less stressful engineering run.

I'll somewhat fight you on Crazy King, as the fights for the points and trying to harass the enemy/ block the enemy can be pretty hectic both crewing and gunning. I know I helped win a CK fight by repeatedly annoying the hell out of two enemies and then simply having my crew tank their damage.

MOre modes are needed, period, but the issue on whether it's captain or crew focused is the issue. Maybe a Payload type mode? Domination style? Oddball? Guns has an odd niche that some modes work and others don't on.

Offline Narayan

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Re: Captain Centric Game Modes
« Reply #2 on: March 29, 2017, 07:08:40 pm »
I agree one hundred percent all pvp matches should be limited to battle on the dunes deathmatch.

Offline Huskarr

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Re: Captain Centric Game Modes
« Reply #3 on: March 29, 2017, 07:35:03 pm »
Narayan you completely missed the point.


The point is that from a crewmembers point of view it doesn't matter what game mode or even map it is (mechanically speaking). The only difference between a Duel at Dawn and a Battle on the Dunes match for a crewmember is the ship and loadout.

For a crewmember there is little to no difference between playing a metamob on Dunes and playing one on Firnfield.

My point here is that while there is merit in new maps and game modes they MOSTLY benefit the captains experience. Game modes more so than maps. It doesn't really matter if you shoot this Spire just to kill it, or because it is on the point and you have to capture the point to win the match.

The easiest solution to this problem obviously is to implement new guns and new ships into Skirmish and focus LESS on game modes and maps.

Offline Narayan

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Re: Captain Centric Game Modes
« Reply #4 on: March 31, 2017, 03:55:10 pm »
No huskar you missed the point you don't get sarcasm. Do you English or are you still learning?

Offline Huskarr

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Re: Captain Centric Game Modes
« Reply #5 on: March 31, 2017, 06:05:17 pm »
Sorry I probably over interpreted your statement a little, since I assumed you were exaggerating the argument to falsify it. I was tired at the time, because of a long train ride.

In any case, I had the basics of this theory forming at the back of my head leading me to think about how to make additions to the game better for everyone playing.
I'd like to apologize again for letting this out on you though.

Offline Wolfprints

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Re: Captain Centric Game Modes
« Reply #6 on: March 31, 2017, 06:40:56 pm »
I definitely agree with your statement there.  I think Alliance will help address this a little bit.  Larger ships and more powerful engineering tools will free up engineers to do more shooting.  The new engineering tools let more of the repair process be automated, which is essential on a ship as big as the Corsair.

I think for the gunner and engineer experience, diversity of ships and weapons are more important than the actual game mode, since as you say, only the captain really effects accomplishing the objectives.

Offline Hoja Lateralus

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Re: Captain Centric Game Modes
« Reply #7 on: April 01, 2017, 07:27:27 pm »
I agree with Hamster, or I will even say more: engineer is the least fun* class in GOIO, period**. Old Crazy King was an excellent example of that, to the point of EVERYONE avoiding this mode. But contrary to Wolfprints I don't think bigger amount of ships or weapons will do the trick, since engineers game-loop itself is boring and unsatisfying, not even mentioning that engineer (especially main) is somehow outside of everything that's happening. He doesn't have time to look around or shoot because he's constantly fixing, he may only hear about what is happening if his captain or crewmembers will be kind enough to tell him. I can't count moments when I heard "wooooaaaah, coool!" as an engie to realise I have no idea what have just happened nor I have possibility to see it (i.e. standing in different part of the ship with view blocked).
But then again this is something I've been talking about for at least 2 years now...

*inb4 "but being engineer is challenging!", fuck off, challenging =/= fun

**inb4 "but I like engineering very much!", well, sure, you may like it and I will gladly hear your arguments although I still think you're in vast minority here

Offline Daft Loon

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Re: Captain Centric Game Modes
« Reply #8 on: April 01, 2017, 08:33:56 pm »
... although I still think you're in vast minority here

Depending on how you count people who like engineering but still prefer gunner/pilot its not so much small minority as simply less than the 50% engineers needed by the pilot-gunner-engineer-engineer default crew.

A bit late now but I'd say it would have been better if the game had been built from the ground up for crews of 3.

Offline Hoja Lateralus

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Re: Captain Centric Game Modes
« Reply #9 on: April 02, 2017, 07:37:44 am »
We have no way of checking that but consider how many people have left this game because they were dissapointed they have to walk around the ship wacking stuff around.

Offline MightyKeb

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Re: Captain Centric Game Modes
« Reply #10 on: April 02, 2017, 08:00:01 am »
I can see a 3-man GOIO taking away some depth from the high levels though. 2 guns shooting at a time would be the maximum, 3 would just be impractical. Ships like Spire and Mobula would have to set up a pair of guns for different ranges, galleon would rule supreme in firepower just because the gunner can manage the two bottom guns, and Pyras/Junkers would be evenly matched with Spire/Mob - the latter would have to try to out-versatile them to win. Doesn't sound too balanced in a PvP setting in the end.

I think Disaster's problem isn't with the gameplay - it's with the ships. Everyone shoots on Spire, Mobula, Galleon and Junker. Squid main is widely regarded as fun and hectic. This leaves Fish and Pyra - which just happen to be the best beginner ships in the game, which means your new engi is going to be spending plenty of time whacking shit and not shooting as much. I guarantee you those "I dropped this game because one guy has to sacrifice his fun so that you can win" people could be won over if you just gave them those 4 trifecta based ships. The only problem being - they're hard. Especially if you don't have strong engineer instincts to balance out all the shooting. Pyra and Fish serve as more of a "training" so that the crewman knows the ship before he starts interacting with the enemy. This is a good thing, it helps in the long run, it's just a shame that PvP store page and youtube coverage has given casuals an unjustly high expectation for their beginner experience.

Offline Nikola Brackman

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Re: Captain Centric Game Modes
« Reply #11 on: April 02, 2017, 10:19:23 am »
I actually have the opposite opinion of crew size, I would like a 5-6 man crew and feel like most of the ships are actually built for that range.  A slightly larger crew would make going gunner-heavy more viable too, since several gunners working together could bring enough repair capacity that the engineer mostly has to worry about fighting fires.  Though IMO a gungineer will still be superior to a gunner unless the class abilities make their way to skirmish.  Most loadouts just don't need three ammo types, especially when you can substitute charged rounds with the buff hammer.

I will agree though that any new game mode is 90% only relevant to the pilot.  The rest of the crew just does pretty much the same thing no matter which mode it is.  For the crew, new content is guns and ships.

Also I main engineer.  It is fun and you do get to use the guns if you're fast and know what you're doing.  Having an agreement with another engineer to divide the ship up helps: less running for more fixing, you won't interrupt each others' cooldowns, and on a lot of ships you'll each get a gun or two to yourselves.

Offline Daft Loon

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Re: Captain Centric Game Modes
« Reply #12 on: April 02, 2017, 08:22:31 pm »
We have no way of checking that but consider how many people have left this game because they were dissapointed they have to walk around the ship wacking stuff around.

I was thinking in terms of the games existing population lacking the 50% desire to be engineer, if you add in all those who could have kept playing it might indeed get close to small minority.

I can see a 3-man GOIO taking away some depth from the high levels though. 2 guns shooting at a time would be the maximum, 3 would just be impractical. Ships like Spire and Mobula would have to set up a pair of guns for different ranges, galleon would rule supreme in firepower just because the gunner can manage the two bottom guns, and Pyras/Junkers would be evenly matched with Spire/Mob - the latter would have to try to out-versatile them to win. Doesn't sound too balanced in a PvP setting in the end.
By 'from the ground up' I was meaning so early in development that we wouldn't even have the same ships, It might have taken away some of the depth at the top, but it would have been much better for the rest up to and including those at my level of "skill" and experience in the game.

I actually have the opposite opinion of crew size, I would like a 5-6 man crew and feel like most of the ships are actually built for that range.  A slightly larger crew would make going gunner-heavy more viable too, since several gunners working together could bring enough repair capacity that the engineer mostly has to worry about fighting fires.  Though IMO a gungineer will still be superior to a gunner unless the class abilities make their way to skirmish.  Most loadouts just don't need three ammo types, especially when you can substitute charged rounds with the buff hammer.

I can actually see that working in alliance, the same two engineers keep the hull, balloon + misc repaired and then several gunners fire the weapons all around you. It would need some balance tweaks but they wouldn't be impossible.

Offline Naoura

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Re: Captain Centric Game Modes
« Reply #13 on: April 02, 2017, 09:41:20 pm »
Daft, I posted something like that centuries ago, specifically for Alliance. Dreadnoughts, larger crewed, larger sized ships that cost two lives if they went down, but were pretty much impossible to bring down normally. Think I still have the post somewhere...

Offline Skrimskraw

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Re: Captain Centric Game Modes
« Reply #14 on: April 03, 2017, 07:21:46 am »
pilots are divas :)