Author Topic: Can we have some very simple restriction  (Read 2141 times)

Offline AlienOvermind

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Can we have some very simple restriction
« on: March 05, 2017, 02:20:17 pm »
I think only one slot — second one (right after captain slot) should allow player to pick gunner. Two bottom slots should be engineer only. With swap slot function it wouldn't hurt any well-organized crew, but would help new players to chose right job.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2017, 02:23:35 pm by AlienOvermind »

Offline Ace of Hawks

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Re: Can we have some very simple restriction
« Reply #1 on: March 05, 2017, 05:03:15 pm »
seems pretty useless. especially when you get to higher levels some captains like to take more than one gunner. the current system works fine. remember you can always reccomend loadouts

Offline Schwalbe

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Re: Can we have some very simple restriction
« Reply #2 on: March 05, 2017, 05:05:25 pm »
seems pretty useless. especially when you get to higher levels some captains like to take more than one gunner. the current system works fine. remember you can always reccomend loadouts

Which they decline. And refuse to leave.
Or swap classes after accepting the loadout.
Also, I am yet to see higher level captain taking more than one gunner.

Offline Carn

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Re: Can we have some very simple restriction
« Reply #3 on: March 05, 2017, 05:15:11 pm »
seems pretty useless. especially when you get to higher levels some captains like to take more than one gunner. the current system works fine. remember you can always reccomend loadouts

Which they decline. And refuse to leave.
Or swap classes after accepting the loadout.
Also, I am yet to see higher level captain taking more than one gunner.
I've only seen high level captains willingly take multiple gunners in "just for fun" games.  Also I feel like this idea is, in essence, purely cosmetic.  I'd rather Muse get the big stuff done.

Offline Mithrandir .

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Re: Can we have some very simple restriction
« Reply #4 on: March 05, 2017, 05:24:09 pm »
seems pretty useless. especially when you get to higher levels some captains like to take more than one gunner. the current system works fine. remember you can always reccomend loadouts

Which they decline. And refuse to leave.
Or swap classes after accepting the loadout.
Also, I am yet to see higher level captain taking more than one gunner.

They do it with mine squids.  Thats pretty much it.

Offline Schwalbe

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Re: Can we have some very simple restriction
« Reply #5 on: March 05, 2017, 05:29:07 pm »
seems pretty useless. especially when you get to higher levels some captains like to take more than one gunner. the current system works fine. remember you can always reccomend loadouts

Which they decline. And refuse to leave.
Or swap classes after accepting the loadout.
Also, I am yet to see higher level captain taking more than one gunner.

They do it with mine squids.  Thats pretty much it.

Prove it.

Higher level captain I consider above 40.

Offline Red-Xiii

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Re: Can we have some very simple restriction
« Reply #6 on: March 05, 2017, 05:56:50 pm »
seems pretty useless. especially when you get to higher levels some captains like to take more than one gunner. the current system works fine. remember you can always reccomend loadouts

Which they decline. And refuse to leave.
Or swap classes after accepting the loadout.
Also, I am yet to see higher level captain taking more than one gunner.

They do it with mine squids.  Thats pretty much it.

Prove it.

Higher level captain I consider above 40.

Myself and Fapcat are frequent double gunner-ers. (sometimes triple gunner squids. For fun and not so fun.)

Offline AlienOvermind

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Re: Can we have some very simple restriction
« Reply #7 on: March 05, 2017, 10:48:35 pm »
especially when you get to higher levels some captains like to take more than one gunner
Nobody does that in serious matches. People only do that in the same manner as using all-harpoon ships — to fool around. So, not a big deal if they lose one opportunity to do silly stuff. After all we got similar restriction for captain/piot slot and everything's fine.

Which they decline. And refuse to leave.
Or swap classes after accepting the loadout.

Right. Also people joining mid-match. You can do absolutely nothting about them, except asking them to leave.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2017, 11:12:43 pm by AlienOvermind »

Offline Psi Crow

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Re: Can we have some very simple restriction
« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2017, 05:29:56 am »
we don't need that. Also consider the following:
A ship may choose to have no gunner at all, engis only. Therefore the gunner spot also has to accept having an engineer. Now what if someone sits in there as engi, but the captain actually wants a gunner? now everything is stuck because of that one newbie who doesn't know about the spots and how to change class (or that one ignorant troll or whatever). without that restriction of yours the chances are good that there is still another player in the team who doesn't mind switching class for the good of the match.

Offline Nikola Brackman

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Re: Can we have some very simple restriction
« Reply #9 on: March 06, 2017, 10:32:49 am »
Hmm... a somewhat weird idea, but what if we combined Engies and Gunners into a single "crew" class?  So basically there'd only be two classes: Pilot and Crew.  The Crew would have four equipment slots that they can fill with either ammo or engineering tools, would have all the stamina abilities of both engies and gunners (so they can sprint, force angles, and accelerate reloads), and would have access to all the non-Pilot cooldown abilities.

An individual crewmember would be able to specialize to their role using their loadout.  A gunner-style loadout would go heavy on ammo and bring an offensive cooldown like Cataclysm, an engie-style loadout would go heavy on tools and bring a defensive cooldown like Mechanized Reload.  Or someone could fit as a jack-of-all-trades, bringing two ammos and two tools.

Of course this would mean that with the exception of the Pilot being special, we effectively wouldn't have classes at all.  But it would address issues with getting people to switch classes, as well as situations like "I know you're a gunner, but you have a wrench and I need you to use it", or "I know you're an engineer, but you can still man guns so get on there".

Of course, maybe this is just crazy talk.  I can already see at least one issue would be a "gunner" bringing a buff hammer as his third ammo type, for example.  And it'd be hard to balance against other ammos because it stacks with them.

It would handily do away with the whole "everyone wants to be gunners, but everyone needs to be engies" thing though.

Offline AlienOvermind

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Re: Can we have some very simple restriction
« Reply #10 on: March 06, 2017, 10:33:49 am »
Therefore the gunner spot also has to accept having an engineer.
That's what I said basically:
second one should allow player to pick gunner
"Allow to pick", not "force them to be gunner". I.e. first slot — pilot only, 2nd slot — gunner or engineer, third and fourth slots — engineer only.

As for trollproof-ness... Muse would never accept fully trolproof mechanics, they have been promoting "talk over kick" mindset for too long to change it now suddenly.

Offline Psi Crow

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Re: Can we have some very simple restriction
« Reply #11 on: March 07, 2017, 05:16:34 am »
you didn't get my point, sorry that I wasn't clear enough. I hope this clarifies the misunderstanding.
 Your system prevents multiple gunners on a ship, but it creates a problem in the opposite case.
  • Problem 1: two gunners in regular system and one is not willing to go engineer
    Solutions:
    • your system
    • one gunner goes engineer for the good of the team
  • Problem 2: no gunner in your system and the engineer in gunner spot doesn't want to be gunner
    Solutions:
    • old system, so one of the other engineers can be gunner
I prefer 2 solutions over one.

But aside from that, I don't really see the need for this restriction at all. Two gunners usually only happens with new players. They will fail (that's what you said), but THAT'S OK! The whole learning process in this game is about TRY and ERROR and WATCHING OTHERS. How are players supposed to understand that two engineers is better than two gunners if you don't allow them to experience it themselves? Three core elements of this game are in my opinion communication, the variety and complexity induced by a ton of different combinations and the helpful community supporting new players in their steep learning curve. It seems that you are denying the first, restricting the second and apparently too focused on success or too lazy for the third.

@Nikola Brackman That's the lamest thing I can imagine ^^

Offline AlienOvermind

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Re: Can we have some very simple restriction
« Reply #12 on: March 07, 2017, 06:05:19 am »
I prefer 2 solutions over one.
And there are two sloutions for your second problem (which is hardly a problem actually). This second solution: swap slot system. We already have it and it works just fine. So if 2nd slot player doesn't want to be a gunner, he can easily swap with someone who does.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2017, 06:07:15 am by AlienOvermind »

Offline MightyKeb

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Re: Can we have some very simple restriction
« Reply #13 on: March 07, 2017, 06:09:21 am »
I prefer 2 solutions over one.
And there are two sloutions for your second problem (which is hardly a problem actually). This second solution: we already have swap slot system. So if 2nd slot player doesn't want to be a gunner, he can easily swap with someone who does.

Swapping can be painful when done with players who haven't encountered the mechanic or haven't had the need to use it before (almost every single time I swap ships with a new pilot to even out the match) and requires consent on top of that. I think I would prefer your 2nd gunner refusing loadouts over the gunner slot engi refusing to swap. Whatever system you come up with, there'll always be ways to abuse it for people with purely malicious intents. This doesn't stop it, this just makes it harder on us normal players.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2017, 06:18:42 am by MightyKeb »

Offline AlienOvermind

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Re: Can we have some very simple restriction
« Reply #14 on: March 07, 2017, 06:20:39 am »
I think I would prefer your 2nd gunner refusing loadouts over the gunner slot engi refusing to swap.
I wonder if you're in majority here. Becuase my suggestion vs current system in worst case is "ship with 3 engineers vs ship with 2-3 gunners". And I would definitely prefer a ship with three engineers.