Author Topic: #CommunityPatch – Buff Hammer  (Read 1397 times)

Offline BlackenedPies

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#CommunityPatch – Buff Hammer
« on: January 27, 2017, 12:11:12 pm »
The +20% gun damage from the Buff Hammer is being looked at for the Community Patch. A few options have been proposed: reducing damage to +10%, increasing buff duration (from 20 to 30 - 40 or 60 - 80), and decreasing time it takes to buff guns (from 6 to 5 secs).

Increasing duration and reducing buff time benefits gunners and non-buff engineers more because it's easy for a buff engi to keep their own gun perpetually buffed, but buffing another crew's gun only lasts for a clip or two. Reduced damage bonus allows gunners to deal higher DPS while using stamina

What are your opinions on the buff hammer? Are there any other options you'd like to see tested?
« Last Edit: January 27, 2017, 12:13:39 pm by BlackenedPies »

Offline Naoura

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Re: #CommunityPatch – Buff Hammer
« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2017, 11:27:01 am »
I honestly think that the duration for the buff should be increased, and the health bonus should be knocked off. That'd allow the Armor Kit to be brought over from Alliance, if you could modify it a little.

Maybe give armor kit a damage negation buff instead of a set health buff. For example; 20% damage negation to all incoming damage, including engine and balloon tools from the captain.

It'd offer something incredibly useful to a crew, and shake up the meta a little. If you were to increase the buffs for the buff hammer a little, it might balance out well enough to make it a question of which one you want to take with you.

Offline Unarmed Civilian

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Re: #CommunityPatch – Buff Hammer
« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2017, 05:45:12 pm »
Stamina is a stupid mechanic. I've disliked it since I returned to the game to find it in here. It feels like a mechanic they shoehorned in to make gunner less useless because gunner is such a terrible class.

They had this idea starting out that every class can do everything, but each class can do something a little bit better. Turns out as crew, the best thing to do better is repair and buffs, and having more ammo types to choose from isn't always useful. Honestly, if not for guns like the Hades, which needs multiple ammos to control its range, and heavy guns pretty much requiring a gunner to have arcs, there would be no reason to have a gunner over a normal engineer, let alone a buff engineer. Some pilots decide the arcs aren't worth having a gunner and have a 3rd engineer on heavy guns anyways. Even with guns like the Hades, there's people who learn to hit with normal rounds at long range, meaning they don't need lesmok and can buff the gun instead.

Squid, Pyramidion, Junker, and Mobula arguably should all run a buff engie over a gunner, and nerfing the buff hammer won't change that because all gunner does is bring more ammos that aren't needed.

In fact, if the buff hammer was removed from the game, three engineers would still be more optimal in the vast majority of the time than having a gunner. Gunner is that fundamentally flawed.

If gunner could have more than one repair tool then maybe things would be different, since the tradeoff in ability to repair/buff wouldn't be so severe. As is, gunner is a fundamentally situational class who is only relevant because of nerfed heavy guns arcs and stamina.

Personally, I think crew classes should be overhauled to carry whatever mix of repair and gunnery tools they want with up to 3 of each class's tools, including 2 of each, an engie carrying 3 gunner tools, a gunner carrying 3 engie tools. This would make it so you could have "gunners" that could sprint, "engineers" who could force arcs, and mixed classes for a balance of repair and gunnery and a bit more nuance to being a crew member and assembling a crew.

However I already know that's not going to happen because of how much of their system they'd have to rework to allow for that, from database entries to recommended loadout systems to tool selection menus.


...

But yeah. I'd like to see testing of reducing hits to buff guns and how that affects buff-engie and gunner cooperation. Makes it take less time to prebuff gunner guns, but at the same time might be OP in terms of giving the buff engie much more ability to have permanent buffs on their gun.

If the goal is to make gunners see play more, buff their stamina. That's their one unique "no other class can do this" quirk, so make it so gunners can use it more often.

If the goal is to just nerf the buff hammer for being good, then I don't have anything I want to say.

Offline Richard LeMoon

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Re: #CommunityPatch – Buff Hammer
« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2017, 06:13:52 pm »
Any final thoughts on this? Devs are asking for final numbers.

This is in conjunction with Greased and Loch changes.

The goal is to change the buffgunner buff-as-ammo meta and create a new crew dynamic. I don't care if the buff engie buffs a gunner's gun, or another engie's gun, or all the guns on a ship and never fires a gun, as long as they are not just sitting on their own gun using buff as an ammo type.

Offline Naoura

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Re: #CommunityPatch – Buff Hammer
« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2017, 06:16:09 pm »
Not real thoughts on numbers for the buff hammer, in class as I type this, but do bring up that armoer kit idea.

Offline BlackenedPies

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Re: #CommunityPatch – Buff Hammer
« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2017, 06:16:42 pm »
[...]

But yeah. I'd like to see testing of reducing hits to buff guns and how that affects buff-engie and gunner cooperation. Makes it take less time to prebuff gunner guns, but at the same time might be OP in terms of giving the buff engie much more ability to have permanent buffs on their gun.

If the goal is to make gunners see play more, buff their stamina. That's their one unique "no other class can do this" quirk, so make it so gunners can use it more often.

If the goal is to just nerf the buff hammer for being good, then I don't have anything I want to say.

Buff engies already have permanent buffs and rarely run out, the main reason being the gun getting broken. Fewer hits to buff after rebuilt would be a buff. Similarly, increasing duration hardly effects buff engies as they can easily keep their own guns buffed, but it effects the rest of the crew as they can buff another gun for longer. Instead of one or two clips it'll last twice as long

The simplest way to buff gunner stamina is increasing the passive recharge rate - it's the lowest of all classes

Quote from: Richard LeMoon
Any final thoughts on this? Devs are asking for final numbers.

There hasn't been much feedback so it sounds like we're staying with +10% dmg, 40 sec duration, 5 sec buff time

Offline Richard LeMoon

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Buff Hammer - FEEDBACK NEEDED
« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2017, 05:33:07 pm »
Need more feedback from testers on this. The goal was increase the utility of the buff hammer on multiple guns over using it is just another ammo on one gun.

Did you have enough time to keep more than one gun buffed?

Did you keep more things buffed, including guns?

Was the damage on guns noticeably less?

What would you change?

Offline BlackenedPies

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Re: Buff Hammer - FEEDBACK NEEDED
« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2017, 05:59:20 pm »
"Need more feedback from testers on this. The goal was increase the utility of the buff hammer on multiple guns over using it is just another ammo on one gun."
Initial buff + "just another ammo on one gun" ;)

"Did you have enough time to keep more than one gun buffed?"
that part hasn't changed!

"Did you keep more things buffed, including guns?"
no, but that other gun was buffed for 3 - 4 clips, not 1 -2 ;D

"Was the damage on guns noticeably less?"
10% less XD

"What would you change?"
the most popular proposal was reducing time to buff from 6 seconds to 3 - 5
« Last Edit: February 09, 2017, 06:14:01 pm by BlackenedPies »

Offline Richard LeMoon

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Re: #CommunityPatch – Buff Hammer
« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2017, 06:07:24 pm »
Forgot a few questions:

How many matches did you play?

What ships/crew position did you play?