Author Topic: #CommunityPatch – Greased Ammo Balance  (Read 1282 times)

Offline BlackenedPies

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#CommunityPatch – Greased Ammo Balance
« on: January 27, 2017, 10:12:20 am »
This is a follow up and successor to the #AmmotudeAdjustment - Greased ammunition proposals thread. Proposals come from participants in the Skype group, and users on the forum

To a vote of 5 - 4, most preferred only changing jitter instead of both jitter and velocity. The argument against the first option is that jitter doesn't affect guns such as Hades and lumberjack. The argument against the second option is that reducing velocity would decrease arm range and therefor could be a buff

An alternative to decreased velocity is available for testing: decreased velocity without affecting arm range. An additional -10% could be added to the current -20% (-30% total) without changing the -20% arm range. This could, but doesn't need to, decrease range as well as projectile speeds

A similar option is adding shell drop, the opposite of the shell lift (lesmok is +30% lift). This affects projectiles such as hades, mortar, and flak, but not gat, banshee, or carro. In contrast, jitter mainly affects the latter guns

Another option has been proposed by ZnC: reduced damage values, specifically +10% clip (from +20%), -25% damage (from -20%), and +80% ROF (from +60%), which he explains in the previous Greased thread

If you'd like to test these new ideas, here's some options:

Option 1: -30% velocity, +10% arm time (optional +10% shell life to keep current range)
Option 2: -20% shell lift
Option 3: +10% clip, -25% damage, +80% RoF

Notes: Assume Option 1 & 2 include +30% jitter, values subject to change, options can be combined etc.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2017, 10:16:23 am by BlackenedPies »

Offline Unarmed Civilian

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Re: #CommunityPatch – Greased Ammo Balance
« Reply #1 on: January 27, 2017, 10:48:16 am »
I really want to see what option 2 would do to a lot of guns. That sounds really interesting.

Offline Richard LeMoon

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Re: #CommunityPatch – Greased Ammo Balance
« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2017, 04:24:23 pm »
Any final thoughts on this? Devs are asking for final numbers.

/!\This requires the buff nerf to +10% damage. /!\

I would like to see 1 and 3 combined. 2 would be cool, but needs a new ammo. It does not fit Greased.

-30% velocity

+15% arm time: b = unmodified arming range. c = original arming range reduction (b*0.20) b - (b*0.30) = n (new arming range).  n+ (n*0.15) = c + (c*0.00625) With rounding, Grease arming range does not change.

+10% clip.

-25% damage (from -20%)

+80% RoF (from +60%)

I would forgo the +30% jitter.

Also proposed, -50% AOE


« Last Edit: February 01, 2017, 04:43:18 pm by Richard LeMoon »

Offline BlackenedPies

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Re: #CommunityPatch – Greased Ammo Balance
« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2017, 06:26:00 pm »
Any final thoughts on this? Devs are asking for final numbers.

Most votes went to +30% jitter. -30% velocity with +10% arm range (+15% arm time) was well received for testing. Presumably the final numbers are +30% jitter, -30% velocity, +10% arm range

Offline Richard LeMoon

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Re: #CommunityPatch – Greased Ammo Balance
« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2017, 06:33:43 pm »
The big issue with adding jitter is it removes any skill compensation, which is not fun. Yes, it balances, but not in a positive way. Instead of learning to lead more, you are just tossing dice at the enemy and laying it all on chance. This is OK in games entirely built around chance. Guns however, is quite the opposite. Almost everything in the game is built on skill and outplaying.

If two metamidians came face to face with Greased loaded, I would not want the outcome decided by chance. That would create bad feelings all around. You did not lose because you lacked skill. You lost because your roll was not as good.

This is why people want Old Flak and loch back. It was all about skill. You had one shot, no jitter, and had to make it count.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2017, 06:36:28 pm by Richard LeMoon »

Offline BlackenedPies

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Re: #CommunityPatch – Greased Ammo Balance
« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2017, 06:50:41 pm »
The big issue with adding jitter is it removes any skill compensation, which is not fun. Yes, it balances, but not in a positive way. Instead of learning to lead more, you are just tossing dice at the enemy and laying it all on chance. This is OK in games entirely built around chance. Guns however, is quite the opposite. Almost everything in the game is built on skill and outplaying.

If two metamidians came face to face with Greased loaded, I would not want the outcome decided by chance. That would create bad feelings all around. You did not lose because you lacked skill. You lost because your roll was not as good.

This is why people want Old Flak and loch back. It was all about skill. You had one shot, no jitter, and had to make it count.

I'd rather just reduce the ROF, but players voted for increased jitter so those are the current numbers

Offline Unarmed Civilian

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Re: #CommunityPatch – Greased Ammo Balance
« Reply #6 on: February 01, 2017, 07:10:44 pm »
In terms of balance, I'd go with option 3. In terms of testing odd behaviours I'd really like to see what 2 does, but option 3 seems the most reasonable. Increase up-front DPS at the cost of DPC.

Currently the reason greased is so good is because it doesn't give up any DPC for its use, it just flat out improves DPS in nearly all situations.

More jitter sounds nice in theory, but the proposed jitter increase sounds pretty crazy. I would have to see how it works in practice.

Offline Richard LeMoon

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Re: #CommunityPatch – Greased Ammo Balance
« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2017, 12:52:57 am »
That first vote did not contain all the options we had at hand. All the votes for +jitter and against -velocity mentioned reduced arming time as the main problem. +15% arming time (which has been confirmed doable) removes that disincentive, and invalidates those arguments.

Personally, I don't think we should be testing something that brings balance through random numbers, while ignoring user interaction. That is bad design in a skill based game.

The following includes the top proposed options, removing jitter for the reasons listed in this and previous posts. Each has 5 stats changed from base. -20% lift could be added to any of them.

Current     Distance adj     DPS adj     Combo
Damage:  -20%-20%-25%-25%
Clip Size:+20%+20%+10%+10%
Rate of Fire:+60%+60%+80%+80%
Projectile Speed:     -20%-30%-20%-30%
Arming time:NA+15%NA+15%
Rotation Speed:-15%NA-15%NA