Author Topic: #AmmotudeAdjustment - LOCHNAGAR ammunition proposals  (Read 2615 times)

Offline BlackenedPies

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#AmmotudeAdjustment - LOCHNAGAR ammunition proposals
« on: January 24, 2017, 08:49:52 am »
Thousands of messages have been exchanged between participates in The Council (Skype link). This thread exists to poll players about our tentatively approved proposals for LOCHNAGAR ammunition. The most popular proposals are as follows:

Lochnagar Proposals

Lochnagar _______________
   
Self damage _____
   
Clip Size _____
   
Rate of Fire _____
   
Rotation Speed _____
   
Jitter _____
   
Current Stats
   
100%
   
-60%
   
0%
   
-80%
   
-60%
   
Option 1 (Revert)
   
250 DMG
   
One Shot
   
0%
   
-90%
   
-100%
   
Option 2 (ZanC)
   
100%
   
-50%
   
-50%
   
-80%
   
-60%
   
Option 3 (Daft Loon)
   
100%
   
-40%
   
-20%
   
-90%
   
-100%
   

Notes:
Option 1 reverts Loch to its pre-1.4.5 state
Options 2 & 3 were proposed by ZanC and Daft Loon, who explain here

This table is designed for you to reply with quote to this thread and select the option with which you most agree by deleting the other proposals. Each proposal is grouped between the [ TR]  and [ /TR ] tags, so remove those lines of code as necessary. Good luck!
« Last Edit: January 24, 2017, 08:56:10 am by BlackenedPies »

Offline BlackenedPies

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Re: #AmmotudeAdjustment - LOCHNAGAR ammunition proposals
« Reply #1 on: January 24, 2017, 08:53:49 am »
Loch gat deals 38% higher DPS than greased. I vote option 3

Offline ZnC

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Re: #AmmotudeAdjustment - LOCHNAGAR ammunition proposals
« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2017, 10:13:35 am »
My suggestion and Daft's are going towards the same direction. I was going to say that I'd vote for either one... until I pulled the numbers.

Reducing clip size by 40% (as opposed to 50%) gives the Lumberjack, Light Flak and Hades an extra shot. That (along with only -20% RoF) would very definitely break them. I don't think -20% RoF is enough to balance the sheer 125% increase in damage; Loch Gat would still be broken.

Clip Size should stay at 50%. Rate of Fire can be fine-tuned (40-60%). I have no opinions on Rotation Speed and Jitter (as long as no drastic changes).

Offline Naoura

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Re: #AmmotudeAdjustment - LOCHNAGAR ammunition proposals
« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2017, 12:43:57 pm »
Option 2 (ZanC)
   
100%
   
-50%
   
-50%
   
-80%
   
-60%
   


Offline BlackenedPies

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Re: #AmmotudeAdjustment - LOCHNAGAR ammunition proposals
« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2017, 12:49:34 pm »
That's a good point ZnC, clip should remain at -60% or change to -50%. I don't think gat dps is a problem with a small ROF reduction, like -20%, if rotation was reverted to -90

-50% ROF sounds high, and I'm not sure loch could remain competitive on light guns with it, but it might also change repair cycles. I'll run the numbers later, but like you said, the suggestions are very similar and just comes down to finding the right numbers

Offline Daft Loon

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Re: #AmmotudeAdjustment - LOCHNAGAR ammunition proposals
« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2017, 01:41:58 pm »
For some reason i thought the initial new loch was -40% not -50%, -50% makes more sense having done the numbers now, 4 hades shots, 3 light flak, 3 lumberjack, 3 light carronade shots.

-20% ROF was pulled out of the air initially but I calculated it would make loch drop to greased gatling dps after 30% of the clip having done ~400 damage, that was with -40% clip -50% will reduce that damage figure by a bit.

-90% turning is also a significant nerf to loch gat, at -80% its not hard enough to keep the gun pointed at a moving target, -90% should mean using loch is a bad idea if the target is moving around in your sights too much forcing people to make decisions. Having to pick your shots carefully on account of the turning was part of the challenge of old loch and why I (and probably others) gave fairly strong feedback against the inital change to -70% in testing. (they sort of listened)

Offline BlackenedPies

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Re: #AmmotudeAdjustment - LOCHNAGAR ammunition proposals
« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2017, 05:53:36 pm »
Does anyone think rotation speed should remain at -80%, or have an opinion on jitter? Otherwise, let's reach a timely compromise. The two proposals agree on -50% clip, and that ROF should be reduced. I like Daft's reasoning for -20%, but lower (more negative) would make more sense with the current -80% rotation than a reverted -90%

Here's my thoughts: if we want -90% rotation then -20% ROF sounds good. If we keep -80% then maybe -30 - 40% (50 seems too high). I prefer non-100% jitter reduction so perhaps -90% jitter (above -60% to be more relevant on Hcarro)
« Last Edit: January 24, 2017, 05:56:27 pm by BlackenedPies »

Offline Naoura

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Re: #AmmotudeAdjustment - LOCHNAGAR ammunition proposals
« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2017, 06:14:00 pm »
Jitter should be fine where it is, though that does bring to mind a new ammo type.

As for ROF, why can't we have both? 35% would be an okay compromise with it, as far as I know.

Offline ZnC

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Re: #AmmotudeAdjustment - LOCHNAGAR ammunition proposals
« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2017, 06:37:53 pm »
Richard mentioned in Skype that the Lumberjack gets 3 powerful (balloon OHKO) shots. Considering that, we were discussing whether to up it to -60% RoF. From the numbers perspective, I'm inclined to agree. The DPS does look outrageous on paper (Lumberjack, Hades, L.Flak, L.Carro etc.), even when considering RoF loss from self-damage.

Comparatively, Charged Rounds adds only 30% damage, drops clip size by 20% and reduces RoF by 25%.

I'm generally against nerfing (as opposed to buffing) when it comes to balance; rotation speed at -80% does feel significantly better than -90% in practice. I prefer higher jitter reduction, but am okay with it right now.

Offline BlackenedPies

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Re: #AmmotudeAdjustment - LOCHNAGAR ammunition proposals
« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2017, 09:06:03 pm »
Richard mentioned in Skype that the Lumberjack gets 3 powerful (balloon OHKO) shots. Considering that, we were discussing whether to up it to -60% RoF. From the numbers perspective, I'm inclined to agree. The DPS does look outrageous on paper (Lumberjack, Hades, L.Flak, L.Carro etc.), even when considering RoF loss from self-damage.

If -50% clip is too strong on lumber, then why not keep it at -60%?

Offline ZnC

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Re: #AmmotudeAdjustment - LOCHNAGAR ammunition proposals
« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2017, 09:34:46 pm »
If -50% clip is too strong on lumber, then why not keep it at -60%?

Because I'm hoping to make it viable on the Hades, Light Flak and sometimes Light Carronade. -60% clip size kills it for those guns.

For the Lumberjack, I think 3 shots with about -50% RoF is fine. If you miss you need to wait ~2.5s to make the next shot (compared to ~1.2s now). The subsequent shots also won't matter as much if you land the first. Greased and Charged will still have the most optimal DPS (but longer arming range) due to Loch's self-damage.

Offline BlackenedPies

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Re: #AmmotudeAdjustment - LOCHNAGAR ammunition proposals
« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2017, 09:50:19 pm »
Because I'm hoping to make it viable on the Hades, Light Flak and sometimes Light Carronade. -60% clip size kills it for those guns.

For the Lumberjack, I think 3 shots with about -50% RoF is fine. If you miss you need to wait ~2.5s to make the next shot (compared to ~1.2s now). The subsequent shots also won't matter as much if you land the first. Greased and Charged will still have the most optimal DPS (but longer arming range) due to Loch's self-damage.

That's fair, it's arguably more important to be balanced for hades and Lflak than gat. You've sold me ZnC

Offline Unarmed Civilian

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Re: #AmmotudeAdjustment - LOCHNAGAR ammunition proposals
« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2017, 10:06:16 pm »
The revert option is simply a massive nerf to the ammo since Heavy Flak was changed, which was the primary beneficiary besides H carro.

I vote option 2 because I like the idea of loch hades being buffed and loch L flak being usable.

Option 2 (ZanC)
   
100%
   
-50%
   
-50%
   
-80%
   
-60%
   

Option 3 is interesting, but I'm worried the clip size reduction is too low for the huge damage boost.

Offline Richard LeMoon

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Re: #AmmotudeAdjustment - LOCHNAGAR ammunition proposals
« Reply #13 on: January 24, 2017, 10:18:57 pm »
I am in favor of the 90% turning reduction. It added to the skill of knowing exactly when to load in the ammo to have the shot lined up, instead of just having it preloaded.

Offline Red-Xiii

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Re: #AmmotudeAdjustment - LOCHNAGAR ammunition proposals
« Reply #14 on: January 25, 2017, 12:31:19 pm »
I'm on the revert bandwagon.  Option 1