Author Topic: A cry for change  (Read 98571 times)

Offline Kira Wa Nai

  • Community Ambassador
  • Salutes: 19
    • [PLRS]
    • 29 
    • 45
    • 45 
    • View Profile
Re: A cry for change
« Reply #75 on: January 17, 2017, 06:46:03 pm »
In this thread, there was a post written by a very close friend and a long-time teammate of mine.
It went way too far in how much rage it contained and how far away from constructive discussion it took the thread.
I managed to get him to remove it.
I apologize for the fact that it even existed in the first place. I'm disappointed by myself for allowing it to crop up here.

I beg you all to keep your heads cold and be mature. Please. I beg you.

Offline DrTentacles

  • Member
  • Salutes: 30
    • [GSR]
    • 19 
    • 25
    • 45 
    • View Profile
Re: A cry for change
« Reply #76 on: January 17, 2017, 08:25:33 pm »
Wow, it's been forever since I've posted here. I left after the Loch nerf--it killed my favorite playstyle, but I've kept with Alliance, and fully expect to put time into it, but more casually.

Since this thread is racing, I'll add my two cents--I liked the bit about expectations. My confidence has been severely shaken, and frankly, I don't expect to play Skirmish until heavy changes are made, but I will definitely give what I'd like out of this.

When it comes to new content, I'd expect maybe 3 major content "events" per year. Each content update should include at least two features (New Ship + New Gun, New Faction + New Gun, Ship Ported to Skirmish + New Ammo Type). These can be announced and hyped, and should probably have a sale located around them. This also gives months of time for testing. I understand your graphics designers are strained, however, so I'd be willing to accept two per year. New ship cosmetics would also be very welcome.

Balance where exceptions seem to be most strained between Muse and players. Frankly, balance communicating has always been poor. I am not trying to insult you--I'm simply stating a fact. Reasons behind nerfs and buffs are either unintuitive, muddled, or not communicated at all, player response is often ignored, and you attempt to do blind testing with a far too limited fragment of the guns community. Overwatch, a game with a far larger budget and community also seems to have similar problems with constructive PTR results, so I suspect this has little to do with community size, and mostly relates to the fact that most people who play PTR already have heavy involvement with the game.

That's fine.

What I'd like is non-blind PTR tests to try to catch game-breakingly OP things, then bi-weekly balance patches that adjust numbers very sparingly, rather than wild swings. I'd like the desired effects and concerns that lead to this directly stated, and perhaps "meta breakdown" reports. I would like you guys to be unafraid to revert previous changes if they're poorly received, and not leave guns in "gimmick" territory because they came out unsatisfying (Minotaur). It was overnerfed, and rather than adjusting it's function/numbers, it's been left to stagnate. (One of my favorite things from Overwatch is the ability to analyze that sort of thing.) Internal reporting of deadlines would be nice--I'd say you're not actually accountable to the community, but I feel like there's been persistent tension since I've been a player.

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

On Balance Philosophy Below:

Overwatch also tends to balance both around a competitive level, and a newbie level. I'm not sure what Guns balances around, partially because the game has a very odd sets of required skills. There's teamwork, aim, and ease of use, communication between captains and crew, and we have very few "middle experience" players. I believe many of the game's balance problems come from it's biggest strength--Teamwork. There is a heavy limit to how much one player can impact a match positively, as very few guns have a high, aim-based individual impact, and engineering is time management. The closest to a "carry" roll in the game is the Captain. This results in players losing without knowing *why* they lost, as there's little (mechanically) they can do to impact it.

I feel like many balance patches are "band aids" to cover that problem--nerfing flame weapons, increasing gun ease of use, and so forth. Some defy logic, however, such as the loch patch. This also creates the problem where Time to Kill feels very high to inexperienced players, and low to skilled players, as broken builds (on a new player's side) make matches grind forever, and turn engineering into a chore.

The solution to this is not "get gud." The game needs low-skill weapons that also fall off in effectiveness as you get better, and high-skill weapons that require some sort of mechanical skill or teamwork to execute. Ammo can also fulfill this purpose--altering the fundamentals of a weapon to create a different risk/reward. I feel like Lochnagar was a good example of that sort of effect.

As bad for the "teamwork" focus of the game as it initially seems, GOI needs a noob tube, as well. The Hwatcha fits that department--or used to, but it's also fundamentally unfun, as it only involves one gunner, works only on specific ships, and is heavily disable focused. One one hand, part of the engineer tax is learning to prioritize components, but mass ship disable is *far* too easy, and it's counterplay is under-powered. This, like fire, leads to an unfun new player experience.

The number of semi-hard counters in this game needs to be toned down. A match should not be decided by the ship chosen in the lobby. I suggest allowing players to change loadouts mid-match, and lowering the number of hard counters in the game.

I would start incrementally adjusting weapons to push them harder into specific niches, and encourage actual mastery. This gives a reason to continue playing competitively, and gives skills other than "teamwork" to build.

The game should be relatively easy to enter, and dick around with, but have a mastery requirement that takes practice. The Hades and the Lumberjack are the only two guns that I feel are "worth" mastering, and they've risen and fallen in meta.

When I played competitively, I probably wouldn't have liked many of these suggested balance changes, as they diminish the "teamwork" aspect, but I feel like Gun's problems require a hard look at the philosophy of the game's design.

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

With that, I leave one final question:

What are the stages of improvement and mastery for each role in the game? How does a player "get better?"

This isn't rhetorical--I am honestly curious. How do you envision a player's introduction to the world of Guns of Icarus going, and how do you see them getting better? (Especially knowing many will not have the time or desire to improve, or find a stable team?)

« Last Edit: January 17, 2017, 08:39:10 pm by DrTentacles »

Offline Red-Xiii

  • Member
  • Salutes: 32
    • [-§ɱ-]
    • 45 
    • 45
    • 45 
    • View Profile
    • Steel Meridian
Re: A cry for change
« Reply #77 on: January 17, 2017, 11:29:38 pm »
SM and I echo many sentiments laid out here in this thread and I don't want to add anymore redundancy to it. 

I will add there was a time  when I felt a personal responsibility to try and help the community and developers best I could based on what type of  game they made and what it required of it's players, make excuses for  the issues with the game to new players on behalf of muse, support through the market (still regret some purchases), and just overall promote a game I felt was in every way a breathe of fresh air and nice change in my gaming ways. 

Then I look at the forum history, this thread, my feedback replies from muse and just wonder to myself...............why on earth do I care more then the devs?

Now I concentrate on my friends and clanmates and look forward to BlackWake.

Offline -MMBF- Shelton

  • Member
  • Salutes: 0
    • [MMBF]
    • 10 
    • 21
    • 33 
    • View Profile
Re: A cry for change
« Reply #78 on: January 18, 2017, 05:17:30 am »
Fix this. MMBF clan stands with the change. 


o7 Del, Dio, Jedi, Ansro....  MMBF stands with you

Offline Rareform K. Rozhkov

  • Member
  • Salutes: 84
    • [SkBo]
    • 43 
    • 45
    • 24 
    • View Profile
    • Skyborne Site
Re: A cry for change
« Reply #79 on: January 18, 2017, 11:34:57 am »
guns of icarus is a fun game

Offline Naoura

  • Member
  • Salutes: 25
    • [Sass]
    • 31 
    • 45
    • 32 
    • View Profile
Re: A cry for change
« Reply #80 on: January 18, 2017, 12:02:02 pm »
I said it once, I'll say it again.

Muse is the Pilot, but we're the crew. They can't keep burning 'shine through the engines and expect to keep going. They can't expect us to land shots if they keep twisting us out of arc. And they're going to have us crash and burn if they keep the hydro up.

Muse needs a schedule. A definite, clockwork, rigorous schedule for releases. At least a whole release, meaning Map, Weapon, and Ship, every year, as that would certainly FORCE them to watch the meta, see what chinks they can fill, or at least see what hasn't been useful and what's been too effective. If they have to keep to schedule like this, disconnect would, hopefully, go down, as Muse would have to at least look at Skirmish.

Muse won't, however. Not until they finish the second game they are working on, Alliance, because you don't take 3 years to make a DLC. They've burned too hard for that, and that's what has been their downfall.

Offline Byron Cavendish

  • Member
  • Salutes: 89
    • [TB]
    • 21 
    • 31
    • 45 
    • View Profile
    • The Brotherhood
Re: A cry for change
« Reply #81 on: January 18, 2017, 12:08:14 pm »
Well In May it will have been four years. Four years. It's not even a new game! It has a lot of content for sure, but it's still relying on Skirmish for a lot of existing content.

Most companies could (and have) made entirely new games in that time!
« Last Edit: January 18, 2017, 12:17:16 pm by Byron Cavendish »

Offline Byron Cavendish

  • Member
  • Salutes: 89
    • [TB]
    • 21 
    • 31
    • 45 
    • View Profile
    • The Brotherhood
Re: A cry for change
« Reply #82 on: January 18, 2017, 12:14:20 pm »
@Byron,

Damned isn't making a second game's size worth of content at the same time. This is the reason I would say we rate pretty low for content.
As for quarterly content updates
Like one full gun every quarter or what size of content would be your expectation? I want to zero in on it so I can talk to the team and see, after we get through getting alliance out if we can make a new roadmap and what player expectations vs our reality is and how they can mesh.

So I wrote this back in September and posted it a few times since then:
Quote
From my calculations, MUSE has created 7 new ships, 7 new guns, and 7 new maps since the release of skirmish (factoring in both skirmish and alliance content). That is 1.75, or 2 (rounding up) new ships, 2 new guns, and 2 new maps a year that they have produced.

Unfortunately, that is my minimum expectation of content that should be produced and available for skirmish at this point. This is even factoring in Alliance content, which should double that. Basically, MUSE is 4 years behind in expected content, and this is a problem that others, and myself, have tried communicating to them for these past 4 years.

That is a huge problem with the game, and a reason why not only veteran players, but entire clans, and casual players from sales are not returning, and why advertising will have diminishing returns (to the point of being completely ineffective).

I've factored in Alliance to give you a bone. It's still not good enough. I'm telling you this as a customer. It's not my job to figure out how you should manage your time better. All I'm saying is, that is not good enough.


Offline Naoura

  • Member
  • Salutes: 25
    • [Sass]
    • 31 
    • 45
    • 32 
    • View Profile
Re: A cry for change
« Reply #83 on: January 18, 2017, 12:23:25 pm »
That's why I'm saying this isn't a DLC anymore.

Alliance is a completely new game, and Muse didn't define or appropriately distribute resources for it. Four years to build a DLC? No. Just... no. I don't care how small the company is, I don't care how indie, a DLC does not take four years.

Guns of Icarus: Alliance is a completely new game that's being tacked onto Guns of Icarus. I refuse to see it as a DLC anymore, with the amount of resources, time and power that they've dedicated to it.

Hell, the Kickstarter for Adventure would have been it's own game. That wouldn't have been a DLC, and it shouldn't have been defined as one. Look at popular MMO's. They built the adventuring side first, then the PvP. Not the other way around, like Muse has done with Guns. If they wanted to make Adventure mode, that would have been it's own bleeding game, same as with Alliance, and it would be released alongside Guns of Icarus, either independently or with a price increase to the base game. They're shoring up what made guns great, not just making a small addition.

An addition is a DLC. Making a complete other half to the game is an entirely new game. One takes a few months to maaaybe two years, if you're small. The other takes 2-3 years.

Offline Kestril

  • Community Ambassador
  • Salutes: 24
    • [Sass]
    • 33 
    • 36
    • 45 
    • View Profile
Re: A cry for change
« Reply #84 on: January 18, 2017, 12:32:37 pm »
So, in the interest of rebuilding this bridge between the GOIO devs and the GOIO community, lets flip this around:

What can we do to better provide feedback to muse in a more clear, concise way? We do really enjoy and love this game to still be around 4 years for some, and this thread is a great example of the passion this community has for Guns of Icarus and for each other. So what are some ways we can make our knowledge and understanding of the game more clear to the devs?

Jedi has asked this question and started #hashtag campaigns and copypasta emails, with some success with #adaptthemaps.

I'm curious, what other methods do we have?

The forum feedback is very scattered nowadays. Maybe after a test we could all make an effort to show our knowledge and understanding of the game--and how to make it better--to muse by posting in the thread. Maybe we can email muse with only a link to the thread where we give feedback. That way, they get the feedback but also in the context of the wider discussion of the community and not a question/answer format that threads become when the devs directly participate in them.

We could also organize and host a dev-app event. A weekly thing that can become regular like SCS or Chaos. Hashtag #testingtuesdays. With some cordination from the devs, we could maybe get fast, weekly, iterative changes and provide feedback while not using muse's organizational resources. While the competitive community does this to try and set competitive rulesets, I think an organized, regular, weekly push directly linked to the dev app will encourage all parts of the community and the devs to get involved and engaged.

Those are some ideas. Do we have any other ideas? 
« Last Edit: January 18, 2017, 12:36:31 pm by Kestril »

Offline Kira Wa Nai

  • Community Ambassador
  • Salutes: 19
    • [PLRS]
    • 29 
    • 45
    • 45 
    • View Profile
Re: A cry for change
« Reply #85 on: January 18, 2017, 12:52:55 pm »
Do we have any other ideas?

A public Trello board would be nice to have.

Offline BlackenedPies

  • Member
  • Salutes: 134
    • [Duck]
    • 30 
    • 45
    • 45 
    • View Profile
Re: A cry for change
« Reply #86 on: January 18, 2017, 12:57:43 pm »
So, in the interest of rebuilding this bridge between the GOIO devs and the GOIO community, lets flip this around:

What can we do to better provide feedback to muse in a more clear, concise way? We do really enjoy and love this game to still be around 4 years for some, and this thread is a great example of the passion this community has for Guns of Icarus and for each other. So what are some ways we can make our knowledge and understanding of the game more clear to the devs?

A vote system - a feature that's already built into the forum

Offline The Mann

  • CA Mod
  • Salutes: 146
    • [Cake]
    • 40 
    • 45
    • 45 
    • View Profile
Re: A cry for change
« Reply #87 on: January 18, 2017, 01:25:21 pm »
Do we have any other ideas?

A public Trello board would be nice to have.

I believe there is one. Let me get back to you on that

Offline Atruejedi

  • Member
  • Salutes: 64
    • [❤❤❤]
    • 45 
    • 45
    • 45 
    • View Profile
Re: A cry for change
« Reply #88 on: January 18, 2017, 02:04:45 pm »
Do we have any other ideas?

A public Trello board would be nice to have.

I believe there is one. Let me get back to you on that

You mean this?

https://trello.com/b/LFv9xZNF/community-q-a

Ha. Lip service.

Offline Schwalbe

  • Member
  • Salutes: 178
    • [ψ꒜]
    • 45 
    • 45
    • 45 
    • View Profile
Re: A cry for change
« Reply #89 on: January 18, 2017, 02:13:51 pm »
If I saw anyone in my team writing an entire fucking essay in a trello tab TITLE, I'd slap the everliving shit out of him. Or her on that matter.