Author Topic: A cry for change  (Read 58075 times)

Offline Schwalbe

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Re: A cry for change
« Reply #120 on: January 24, 2017, 05:00:37 pm »
The core thing that I am trying to say is being a gunner/engineer is boring imo, it's a very repetitive task and not rewarding, you are like slaves to the captain's will pretty much.
That's why bots are decents at doing this job and outplay most average players because it's a pretty boring and repetitive job. Yes you are busy all the time, but doing not very fun/rewarding things. I won't be against a rework on how you manage your time on the ship, mostly as engineer, faster repairing could allows more room for other more interesting stuffs, for example.
I am not saying the ideas I am proposing are the ones you must apply at all costs, just the general direction I would like thoses jobs to improve in the future.
Peace. ;)

With all due respect, I believe you may have bought the game that is unfit for you, sir. G'day.

Offline Naoura

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Re: A cry for change
« Reply #121 on: January 24, 2017, 05:42:47 pm »
Awfully tame of you Schwalbe.

Offline Hoja Lateralus

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Re: A cry for change
« Reply #122 on: January 24, 2017, 05:46:03 pm »
With my 2,3k-ish match count I feel experienced enough for you not disgarding my opinion so quickly.

I think Boby's post went completely over your head. Of course I don't mind you having a different opinion but I think you don't see the issue. It's very telling that Bobby says engineer is not fun and first thing you respond with is that engineer is important. Nobody said it isn't. It doesn't matter at all for this case though.

Platforming is an exaggeration of what engineer is doing. How much platforming do you 'really' do on, say, mobula, spire, junker or pyramidion? Not much. I wouldn't say jumping straight down to reach the lower deck or jumping over a rail is really (an engiaging) platforming. Jumping over the stairs not to be blocked by a sticking out pixel is not platforming. The best of it is on the squid and even there it's like one or two jumps you have to learn and that's it. Rinse and repeat.

On time management... meh. This would have been true if cooldowns had been changed a bit. Usually it comes down to a good repair cycle and following your captains orders. And at some point you can't really get better at it because, again, cooldowns. Not even mentioning that many times you're just forced to camp the hull or baloon anyway, and again, you can't get any better at it and it's not really engaging.

Offline Naoura

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Re: A cry for change
« Reply #123 on: January 24, 2017, 06:09:12 pm »
I wasn't disregarding his opinion, just offering up the view I had on his.

From what I saw of what he was saying, most of the things he was offering there would lock you down, pin you to an area. A quick QTE for a near full repair would encourage staying in place, trying to execute a perfect repair rather than being extremely mobile across the ship, attempting repairs on all fronts. Trying to give a firing speed boost to a weapon would encourage an engineer to simply support the gunner, rather than be where he or she is needed.

I know you're much, much more experienced than me. Believe me, I know, hell, practically everyone on the forums is. From what I know, however, speed, maneuverability across the ship, and timing are what an engineer needs. They need to be everywhere at once, even with cooldowns. Light repairs if you can handle it, so that you can get to something else that needs more urgent repairs. Small repairs here or there, as well as you can do them, before you run to mallet a component. The cooldowns just encourage this, quickly moving about a ship and keeping your repairs up.

And platforming is what an engineer does, if it isn't as expressed on some ships, but there again, it's the ship and what the ship is supposed to be doing that encourages or discourages it. Your example of the Mobula is because what the Mobula is designed for; long distance engagements. The Squid is very apt, as it's supposed to be a fast and loose ship, with the engines the priority rather than the hull. Then we move to ships like the Spire and the Goldfish, which certainly do encourage platforming between the top-decks and the lower decks. Ships like the Galleon and the Pyra I don't believe encourage much platforming due to what those ships are supposed to do.

As for camping, yeah, you do end up needing to camp the hull or balloon at times, and I would definitely like a tool that helps with that. It's not that I'm against trying to hold a component, but I don't think that's the focus of the engineer. Might be a difference of opinion, but  a lack of mobility is an engineers bane.

I'm not against new content or new mechanics. Far from it. I would definitely like new content, and maybe one or two tools that do allow you to camp more effectively, or else be much more powerful for camping, but I would rather they be very costly, simply due to your lack of mobility. What Boby was suggesting, honestly, seemed to pin the engineer down much, much too hard for my view of things.

As for not seeing the issue... I think it's just a difference of enjoyment for some people. There are certainly people who don't enjoy engineering. That's fine. Engineering isn't for everyone, just like Gunning or Captaining isn't for everyone. Some people like the simplicity of running their chem cycle, other like the complexity of trying land a Lumber shot at five kilometers. People take to some things more than others.

Offline Shas'ui

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Re: A cry for change
« Reply #124 on: January 24, 2017, 06:10:30 pm »
I would argue that the routine/"boring" is needed: it allows for the engineer to carry out their tasks without being hyper-focused on them, allowing them to retain a wider view. This is most notable on Crazy King matches: it is often the engineers reminding the captain that it is time to move on, as the captain is distracted by their focus on piloting.

In regards to the fun aspect, different people enjoy different things. I personally find the repeated loop of "identity critical task, start on it, plan next move, complete task one, repeat " extremely satisfying when done properly.

Offline River Turtle

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Re: A cry for change
« Reply #125 on: January 24, 2017, 06:14:48 pm »
I love being engie.  Over 6k matches, probably over 5k of those as engineer.  Yes, there are hard limits in the game that can dictate what you can achieve, but prioritization is a huge part of being a good engineer.  I'm not talking simple stuff, like rebuilding the hull before harpoon gun.  It's about knowing whether to rebuild the main engine or the turners first, based upon the situation.  Or if you need the second turner before the main.  Knowing when to mallet the hull after a rebuild or chemspray it, even if it means it's going to go down almost immediately.  How many rebuild hits you can squeeze into a component before abandoning it to mallet the hull, returning to finish the rebuild afterwards.  Or if it's more important to finish what you're doing before leaving.  Whether to mallet a flaming component or chemspray it.  Whether or not to brace a failing component with the spanner before a mallet hit to extend its life. 
 
Sometimes, when dealing with inexperienced pilots, it's about not rebuilding the main engine, knowing that you're saving the ship from a suicidal 1v2 charge. 
 
The same is true in every class:  knowing the basics and having some experience will get you 90% of the way there.  But the last 10% earned from fine-tuning and situational awareness is a really big 10% and can make all the difference. 

Offline BobyWilliam

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Re: A cry for change
« Reply #126 on: January 25, 2017, 04:42:18 am »
Naoura I was not saying QTE should lock you down, or they should absolutely make QTE, again it was just me giving quick thoughts on how I would like the enginneer job to improve, aka more direct skill involved and less repetitive routine mechanic style of gameplay that I personally can't bear. If they could improve AI bots to help them prioritize more, then for me engineer would be like the ultimate bot job right now.
It's clear engineer need to be a job based around mobility and time management even after the change of direction I am suggesting.

But I hear you, we have just opposed affinity about this position I guess, you like it and I don't. Who I am to tell you you are wrong after all. It might be not made for me that's all. Personally I can only bear playing captain position, and I often pity thoses poors engineers who are non stop paying for my own mistakes and never get praised for their hardwork, it feels like a painful job to my captain's eyes (I try to praise them after every game).
Gunners seems a bit more fun imo, because you know people like to shoot stuffs, personally I don't in this game as it is too basic with nearly no depth in the aim mechanic, but I can understand the players who do even though I am always wondering inside how long thoses guys gonna enjoy shooting stuffs with their brain off.

When I am the captain I like my crew to have a good time, to have fun shooting weapons that are the same time fun and effective, have fun repairing stuffs but I rarely get the impression they are truly having fun after a couple of matchs on thoses jobs, more like they are waiting the first opportunity when I get out to take my position or that they are so bored they go idle/afk in the middle of the match, and I need to remind them the objectives through my voice to make them motivated to perform their duty again.
That makes me sad sometimes.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2017, 05:08:38 am by BobyWilliam »

Offline Naoura

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Re: A cry for change
« Reply #127 on: January 25, 2017, 09:30:26 am »
No offense Boby, but what levels are you often playing with? Higher level engineers rarely go afk in the middle of match, or don't have a good time along their run. Honestly, I don't see what you mean with them wanting to take your place. I know one absolutely fantastic engineer who actively despises captainig, and my clan has made a fantastic inside joke about it.

As for QTE's not locking you down, indirectly, I believe it would. People would end up focusing on getting a perfect QTE on a failing component rather than giving it a mallet and running to repair the next thing, which would, in the longer run, cost you the ship. Perhaps for higher levels, they might be able to disengage from the idea of getting a full repair with a well done QTE in order to repair a failing engine, maintaining maneuverability so as to not lose the ship, but less experienced players would keep on the component, going so far as to camp it for the QTE rather than repair engines, which would slow them down and lower their effectiveness.

As to no depth in the aim mechanic... You've never been on a Lumber, have you? Or really used a Hades, or mines? A lumberjack shot from nearly 3-4 kilometers is a lovely thing to behold, especially on a ship that is moving. Or maybe a Typhon, which is underused simply because it's not paired well with anything besides a Hades, and it's rather difficult to time the shots between the engineer manning it and the gunner attempting to land the extremely slow, extremely hard to hit with flak rounds. Meanwhile, mines offer something completely different, trying to utilize different ammunition types to get more or less range before the mine hits it's arming time and deploys. I cannot begin to describe the satisfaction of getting a Loch mine detonate on an enemy ship after you've fired it perfectly into their path.

Again, it might be a difference of opinion, but I think you need a little more time when to see some things out. Engineering can be fun and satisfying, but even I'll admit, some people find it boring. Same goes for gunning, where they might not feel like they can ever do anything, or else get annoyed at missing juuuuust that one shot. And the same goes for captaining, those who don't like the complexity and the difficulties of coordinating with a second captain, and would prefer the simpler side of things, like engineering or gunning.

Please note I'm not being hostile to you, or trying to be dismissive. Just giving my opinion on things, and how I don't see some of the suggestions as being healthy for the ships in Guns. I admit, having a tool that would assist camping would be a nice addition, especially since it'd be balanced because it slows your engineers down and makes them less mobile, and therefore unable to keep the ship alive. Hell, I suggested and posted a concept of such a tool ages ago, I may send it to you if I can find it again. The reason I mention it is because Guns is starved for content, and should the devs, after hell freezes over, decide to look at the forums to try and grab a few new weapon, tool or ship concepts, then I would rather there be something for them to look at. Post the ideas you have, please! People are going to poke holes in them, but that's what can strengthen them, not dismiss.

Offline Red-Xiii

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Re: A cry for change
« Reply #128 on: January 25, 2017, 12:18:34 pm »
He's giving a quite an honest opinion about his perception of the game from a novice viewpoint.  He's not the only one.  I'm sure many novices walk into this game saying "wtf, all i do is swing this hammer thing. no wonder the player base is this small."  then switching to gunner gets double gunners and vets rage. 

I see alot of response is give it time, tips on what a true engie does, however it doesnt matter because of the systemic issues this game has only a select few make it through the "boring" phase to understand the game as a whole and/or even care.

Offline Naoura

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Re: A cry for change
« Reply #129 on: January 25, 2017, 12:55:38 pm »
Red, those are the people who see CS:GO on the Games Similar to This on Steam. They think the game is only shooting, and that they can solo the fight. That goes on a fundamental misunderstanding of what Guns is.

I agree, something new would be wonderful. Something new that isn't Skyball or old VIP. Something for each of the classes to spice things up a little. But that's not going to matter much if someone still thinks of Guns as CS:GO, or a game where they can go on a solo killing spree, or only want to watch the pretty explosions.

The reason the response is 'give it time' is because it takes time to take apart the expectations and replace them with the truths. Tips on what a true engie does is because if a lower level tries to simply play gunner as an engie, everyone suffers even if they didn't switch to double gunner. A select few make it through any position, possibly with the exception of gunner.

A lower level pilot might stop trying to play captain because they rage quit after realizing that no, they can't solo the match. Or they are tired of dying all the time, despite the fact that they've been told multiple times why they've been dying and how to fix it.

A lower level engineer might stop because, yes, engineering feels kind of unsatisfying... if you don't know what you're doing, or else you think the game is something it isn't.

A newer gunner might leave because they can't snipe a ship with one shot, or else don't enjoy just sitting on a gun and waiting for an arc their captain might never give, or else gets tired of having their weapons be ineffective because they're using the wrong ammunition.

Those that quit due to the game being 'boring' are those with different expectations. Not wrong expectations, just not the one's that Guns would deliver on.

Offline Unarmed Civilian

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Re: A cry for change
« Reply #130 on: January 25, 2017, 01:29:04 pm »
When I am the captain I like my crew to have a good time, to have fun shooting weapons that are the same time fun and effective, have fun repairing stuffs but I rarely get the impression they are truly having fun after a couple of matchs on thoses jobs, more like they are waiting the first opportunity when I get out to take my position or that they are so bored they go idle/afk in the middle of the match, and I need to remind them the objectives through my voice to make them motivated to perform their duty again.
That makes me sad sometimes.

Burn engines more. If you're not burning anything it gets really boring for engineers very quickly. Especially Pyramidion main deck. Pyramidion is probably the worst ship to engineer on if the pilot never burns, because that thing is built for constant burn. And tell them to yell at you if you're overburning and about to lose an engine from it. If you can get an engineer to watch that for you then you're free to monitor other things as a pilot. If it's still boring for them, make them take chem spray. They won't have more than a few seconds to sit still then, and it's better than the extinguisher the majority of the time anyways.

Engineering has a lot of little things that add up to make it a complex task. Should I patch the minor damage with a couple spanner hits so I can still burst heal or just mallet and head to another part? Are my components safe enough to help the other engineer? Should I extinguish or repair the engines? Do I hold the spanner on the hull get the instant rebuild hit or try for the clutch mallet heal? Am I prioritizing chemspray too much or too little? Do I go for the risky Galleon main engine repair trick or leave it to the other engineer?

It's a lot of very small decisions whose answers vary a lot depending on what precisely is happening around you. If your captain managed to get out of arc of the enemy, it may be safe to be "greedy" with repairs and repair all the things. Extinguish engine fires, rebuild some side guns, take the time to fully repair engines, help the gunner repair, etc. On the other hand if you're locked in combat, you have to keep an eye to your hull, count the seconds on the mallet cooldown, may need to abandon an engine rebuild to maximize hull repair, wait to finish a rebuild so the incoming rockets don't immediately destroy it, etc.

For me, enjoying engineering is about enjoying optimization. Optimizing movement, optimizing timing, optimizing repair output, optimizing chemspray coverage. The last 10% that River Turtle mentioned is when engineering really gets interesting.



Also, try engineering more. Especially with higher level pilots. Engineering is only especially dull when the captain doesn't know what the engineers can handle or isn't doing anything interesting. I've had to plead to Pyra pilots to use kerosene before.

Offline Naoura

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Re: A cry for change
« Reply #131 on: January 25, 2017, 01:33:39 pm »
Have a slaute, sir.

Offline DrTentacles

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Re: A cry for change
« Reply #132 on: January 25, 2017, 02:30:52 pm »
Engineering is boring. The skill-cap for engineering is pretty low, and it just comes down to memorizing cycles, and *occasional* prioritization. Burning engines doesn't create fun. Firstly, it turns the "enjoying the map, looking for enemy, planning next move" experience to "bouncing between 2 or 3 engines." There comes a point when you could repair a burn or do a buff cycle with your eyes closed.

(Though once you have a rough idea of what parts are most important, prioritization fades as well.)

In the end, it just mostly comes down to running in circles in the most effective paths during "downtime" and doing brief cycles in between guns and "your part" during combat. Furthermore, the ability of an engineer to impact the outcome of a match is fairly low compared to other classes. The difference between an "expert" engineer and a "middle of the road" engineer is lower than other classes. Engineering "important" as in "an engineer must exist" not "takes the most skill." Furthermore, when you're an engi, you don't really get to "take in" the match--all your focus is on the ship. Don't patronize newbies with "lul git gud, this isn't CSGO." It's a legitimate problem in game design, and has been since launch.

Game needs less disable, and possibly the ability for engineers to "overcharge" parts in ways pilots or gunners can't. Something fun that doesn't involve either camping the hull, or running in circles playing whack-a-mole. Or just make disable weapons less common, and encourage ships where everyone gets to gun.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2017, 02:40:33 pm by DrTentacles »

Offline Solidusbucket

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Re: A cry for change
« Reply #133 on: January 25, 2017, 02:51:30 pm »
Engineering is boring. The skill-cap for engineering is pretty low, and it just comes down to memorizing cycles, and *occasional* prioritization. Burning engines doesn't create fun. Firstly, it turns the "enjoying the map, looking for enemy, planning next move" experience to "bouncing between 2 or 3 engines." There comes a point when you could repair a burn or do a buff cycle with your eyes closed.

(Though once you have a rough idea of what parts are most important, prioritization fades as well.)

In the end, it just mostly comes down to running in circles in the most effective paths during "downtime" and doing brief cycles in between guns and "your part" during combat. Furthermore, the ability of an engineer to impact the outcome of a match is fairly low compared to other classes. The difference between an "expert" engineer and a "middle of the road" engineer is lower than other classes. Engineering "important" as in "an engineer must exist" not "takes the most skill." Furthermore, when you're an engi, you don't really get to "take in" the match--all your focus is on the ship. Don't patronize newbies with "lul git gud, this isn't CSGO." It's a legitimate problem in game design, and has been since launch.

Game needs less disable, and possibly the ability for engineers to "overcharge" parts in ways pilots or gunners can't. Something fun that doesn't involve either camping the hull, or running in circles playing whack-a-mole. Or just make disable weapons less common, and encourage ships where everyone gets to gun.

I disagree.

Offline Huskarr

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Re: A cry for change
« Reply #134 on: January 25, 2017, 02:57:41 pm »
I used to think that engineering would be easy. Then I gitted gud. After nearly 2k matches as engineer I still haven't reached the skill cap.