Author Topic: Notify crew when ship or guns change  (Read 1086 times)

Offline Unarmed Civilian

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Notify crew when ship or guns change
« on: October 27, 2016, 09:28:28 pm »
I'm sure I'm not the only one who gets so caught up in 15 minute Lobbies of Icarus that I forget to check if the captain has changed anything and change my ammos accordingly.

There should be a popup notification (like the 30 second warning) or some sound should play (a drum or clank would be fine) when your ship has any major changes to notify the crew to double-check their equipment.

Some might argue that good communication solves that problem, but communication is overpowered for a reason: most people don't do it. It also does not feel right that the crew should suffer from the captain not announcing a change.

Offline Daft Loon

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Re: Notify crew when ship or guns change
« Reply #1 on: October 27, 2016, 09:53:58 pm »
My thought from a while back was to have each ship's name change color if you haven't looked at its loadout in its current state, changing back to the default once you have seen it.

A sound might be good also now that sound works when tabbed out.

Offline Naoura

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Re: Notify crew when ship or guns change
« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2016, 11:01:11 pm »
I like this. It would definitely help both newer and more seasoned players. Just a fair warning for different changes onboard the ships.

Offline RearAdmiralZill

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Re: Notify crew when ship or guns change
« Reply #3 on: October 28, 2016, 09:32:14 am »
I like the color change idea if it also works on the enemy team as well, given the annoying meta of countering your opponents' load-outs. I spend a lot of time looking at my opponents to make sure I'm not shooting myself in the foot taking the boat I want to fly.

Either way though, seems good.

Offline Arturo Sanchez

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Re: Notify crew when ship or guns change
« Reply #4 on: October 31, 2016, 11:58:21 am »
I like the color change idea if it also works on the enemy team as well, given the annoying meta of countering your opponents' load-outs. I spend a lot of time looking at my opponents to make sure I'm not shooting myself in the foot taking the boat I want to fly.

Either way though, seems good.

Or add the option to hide builds entirely and levels I guess but they were never that important besides bragging rights (first introducing it to custom lobbies only).

But yeah this issue of ship changes is only an issue when a pilot has poor communication skills (and planning ability). Hence the fundamental issue being the pilot being too dumb to communicate his intentions being the core issue than the system itself. Its an instance where I actually agree with muse that communication simply makes the issue an non-issue.


But ye the counter picking thing is annoying. But thats why I'm mentioning the hiding of information than the feed of it when it comes to enemies.

Its a fundamental thing fighting games have solved years ago. You don't reveal the character and match up until both players have confirmed their selection.

With that new fog of war, the idea of direct counters becomes nonexistant because 1 direct counter means you get countered by several other basic metas. It would be a nice change of pace for high level play.

Offline Unarmed Civilian

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Re: Notify crew when ship or guns change
« Reply #5 on: October 31, 2016, 07:01:12 pm »
But yeah this issue of ship changes is only an issue when a pilot has poor communication skills (and planning ability). Hence the fundamental issue being the pilot being too dumb to communicate his intentions being the core issue than the system itself. Its an instance where I actually agree with muse that communication simply makes the issue an non-issue.

Communication is overpowered for a reason, it solves nearly everything. That doesn't mean this is not a problem. In Team Fortress 2, you can use voice chat to communicate everything better than any other system possibly can, but they still have the "Spy!","Incoming!", "Sentry ahead!", and "MEDIC!" commands.

The current system doesn't punish the pilot for being absent-minded and not preparing their crew, it punishes the crew for not compulsively checking their ship loadout every 5 seconds, as they are the ones that are going to have to abandon match to adjust their tools and ammos. It's practically altruism if the pilot recommends loadouts with every switch. The pilot gets away with it by telling their crew to exit and change loadout, or the crew taking it upon themselves to adjust their loadouts.

There's also the problem of newbie pilots, who don't necessarily know everything they need to communicate to the crew, or who assume the crew will figure it out. It's a problem that makes the game less enjoyable for 3 out of 4 players on a ship, and seems to me like one that is easily fixed.

Also, I personally would prefer to not feel compelled to scan loadouts constantly for 5 minutes in lobbies.

But ye the counter picking thing is annoying. But thats why I'm mentioning the hiding of information than the feed of it when it comes to enemies.

Its a fundamental thing fighting games have solved years ago. You don't reveal the character and match up until both players have confirmed their selection.

With that new fog of war, the idea of direct counters becomes nonexistant because 1 direct counter means you get countered by several other basic metas. It would be a nice change of pace for high level play.

I agree with this. Counter picking isn't particularly fun when you're the one getting countered, or when you are shoehorned into playing a small handful of  ships that are hard to hard counter. I just want to be a filthy casual and have fun.

Offline Arturo Sanchez

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Re: Notify crew when ship or guns change
« Reply #6 on: October 31, 2016, 07:20:04 pm »
Your TF2 comment is nothing.

Because the guns equivalent is signals. They're not perfect (personally still think mine are much better), but they exist. Don't be moving goalposts.

And no... the lack of hard counters doesn't mean dirty casuals. It means well prepped tactician thats ready for every/most contingencies. Hence the meta game becomes far more intelligent.

And at casual play, its all the basic pleb metas.

Offline RearAdmiralZill

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Re: Notify crew when ship or guns change
« Reply #7 on: October 31, 2016, 09:13:27 pm »
But ye the counter picking thing is annoying. But thats why I'm mentioning the hiding of information than the feed of it when it comes to enemies.

Its a fundamental thing fighting games have solved years ago. You don't reveal the character and match up until both players have confirmed their selection.

There's a lot of problems with simply hiding this info. I'm not sure how long you've been playing Guns, but you couldn't always look at the enemy's load-outs, and it was awful. The last line implies you can see a load-out after someone is ready, but you can unready, and the game will eventually start regardless of your ready status, so it can remain hidden forever.

Instead of me getting to see what the enemy wants to take and being "ready" for that (in essence countering, but read on) I have to gamble. I have to see what boats they have, look at the map, and guess all their load-outs. If I'm right, maybe I hard counter them and they have a bad time. If I'm wrong, they get to have the good time. Matches shouldn't be dictated on that kind of chance, especially with how long it can take to get a match going in the first place. If I don't want to ever be hard countered, I'd have to limit myself much more than I do now.

Frankly, I don't care about hard countering everything in sight, regardless of my opponents. I just hate being hard countered every game. The fact I can see load-outs allows me to at least alleviate that, and even lets me know when I can be "a dirty casual."

Lets not get too intense though. The idea behind letting your crew know you've changed boat/load-out without input is fine by me. I'd even go as far as letting your allied boats know too. This is a good idea for synergy. I proposed the same would work for the enemy for my personal want to not always have to stare down an experienced enemy's load-out to make sure I can take X and not simply be hard countered and have an overly hard/impossible match. I'm not that much of a masochist.

Offline Arturo Sanchez

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Re: Notify crew when ship or guns change
« Reply #8 on: October 31, 2016, 09:41:23 pm »
I was there when the automated timer wasn't there.

When majority voted and only then did a timer give 30 secs for finishing touches. And it was GOOD. Everyone was always prepped and you had much better control of uncooperative noobs because nothing moved until you got everyone in line.

Majority that complained about the lack of timer were the plebs that didn't even last a month regardless. Muse listened to the idiots that never even stayed to enjoy the hot mess they made. I do acknowledge the issue of dumb noob pilots that didn't ready when they were though. But thats far rarer than the noob that instantly readies. In fact I experienced it today where I was still thinking in the bloody ship screen against waifu but the gits readied and the timer had been running previously so I had 5 seconds on the timer when majority readied.

Couldnt prep my crew, din even have the correct freaking ship, din personally have the correct tools. That automated timer is bollocks. Especially when it continues a timer in less than 30.



Zill... You've been playing this game awhile. Most high level moves are gambles. Moves like that involve doing a dangerous play to break a very common stale mate and you put all your faith in your crew to follow it through to the desired result. And when you do it and notice you miscalculated its instantly apparent.

If you don't want to lose by picking something that is really specific. Play a ship that is good for most situation, running a gamble that you won't cover a certain type of tactic.

It simply adds a layer to the game, as opposed to the instant deciders by hard counters. Because hard counters and counter picking only worked because we  all had the time before, as we constantly switched about until the lobby finished its lil dance and reached an equilibrium. But now with the timer we don't.

And the dance was a stupid thing. And it still is, except now its less effective in balancing a lobby as the luxury of proper prep is no longer the case. Hence why we stick to the established metas as short hands (well done muse, you succeeded in making a cerebral game dumbass friendly, despite the dumbasses being too dumb to appreciate it).



But to the crux of your comment that bothers me. You don't seem to express any idea to actually properly find a solution to counter picking. You simply denied mine with no solution of your own. In context to previous builds with hidden loadouts. You have to think... okay those times were bad.

But were they worst than now? You can't look into this issue without addressing the core problem. Which is in fact the counter picking. Resolve that you resolve the issue this feature is attempting to fix.




*adding a clarification. Ship loadouts hide them but not amongst allies.

Player loadouts, keep them on.
1. it hints on enemy ship tactics (so you're not thinking purely blind)
2. noob with chem and extinguisher and buff and range finders need to always be called out at every instance they are found. If I had my way I'd kill them all to keep the human race pure but hey.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2016, 09:48:14 pm by Arturo Sanchez »

Offline RearAdmiralZill

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Re: Notify crew when ship or guns change
« Reply #9 on: October 31, 2016, 10:09:26 pm »
You're right, I don't have an answer to counter picks off the top of my head right now, mostly due to the way lobbies and timers and everything else works currently. I deal with it by using what the game lets me do. I fly what I fly so I have a fighting chance against the opponent.

I do think not seeing load-outs is still worse than the current counter fest. I'm not one to always be risk-averse. The timer currently forces hands and the match to actually start. Given I actually want to play the game when I log in, I'm OK with this, though I'll never admit the current systems in play are perfect (ie your described situation). That's merely personal opinion though, and you're entitled to yours. If I think I have the "cure" to the core issue I'll let you know, and say that Unarmed's original idea is a good one.

*To your clarification, sure that helps me, but it also helps vets more vs. average joe who doesn't know the game like we do. That's a band-aid at best.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2016, 10:14:14 pm by RearAdmiralZill »