Author Topic: Everyone gets an engie slot  (Read 8096 times)

Offline Hoja Lateralus

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Everyone gets an engie slot
« on: September 21, 2016, 08:19:49 pm »
So, as you may know already, I think the two huge problems with GOIO are: overworking the engineer and the lack of mechanical depth in general, including loadout choices. So my idea for this issue is: give every clas an additional engineering slot.
This way gunner can take either pipe+buff or spanner+mallet or pipe+extinguisher, either guaranteeing a "free" buff on his gun or making him more effective in repairing (making engineer's life easier). This could be game changing especially on the galleon, possibly allowing 2 gunners on ship.
Engineer gets more boring with meta of span-mal-ext-buff, but we see that in Alliance devs have made 2 (or 3?) additional engineering tools which couldn't possibly compete with spanner or mallet, sometimes they would be able as 3rd engie's choice or taken in place of buff. If engineer have 4 slots and we introduce those new tools to skirmish we have plenty of interesting choices to make.
Captain, as gunner, gets either the capability of buffing the vital component or have more repairing power in case shit really goes down. And if new tools arrive to skirmish both captain and gunner could at least go pipe wrench + one of the new tools. In current condition it's highly unlikely that they would choose anything over a pipe wrench/spanner.
Well, you'll probably say that with 4 slots engineers will become ultimately op, especially given buff superpowers. This is the main issue with this solution and I aknowledge it. But firstly - in this scenario a gunner can take the buffer himself without loss of his repairing capabilities and then this problem of engineers being generally stronger == more useful on the ship is already existing. Also this could be an opportunity for the buffhammer nerf.
Another benefit is that players have more tools to deal with Alliance-level threats without the need for upgrade points.

Offline Daft Loon

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Re: Everyone gets an engie slot
« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2016, 11:57:19 pm »
I would prefer the more limited version of this - making the pipe-wrench a free tool.

Gunners would have a serious choice between all the remaining tools (some will say buff 100% of the time but I'm not sure its that easy)

Engineer would get a little cluttered but that could be helped by fixing the wrench into the 5th slot. Choosing between wrench-spanner and mallet-wrench in some cases would seem a little weird due to how terrible those combo's are currently but it would be an interesting choice. Mallet-wrench-spanner would be less pointless in practice than it seems I think.

Biggest advantage of free wrench - it prevents the idiots from evolving from extinguisher gunners to extinguisher-chem gunners.

The Alliance tools are not remotely ready to go into skirmish (or alliance for that matter) in their current form, the fail-safe kit is almost entirely pointless as is and the armor kit has a nasty tendency to make doing nothing but hit the hull with the armor kit into the best strategy.

The change to buffing I would want to see with either a free slot or wrench - A limit of 3 components buffed at one time per hammer (not sure if pooled or independent would be best), mostly to limit the amount of time any 1 engineer can be asked to spend hitting things with a buff-hammer, I would never main engineer a pyra again if I was expected to take mallet-spanner-buff-chem and use it on everything full time.

Offline Inkjet

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Re: Everyone gets an engie slot
« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2016, 10:08:07 pm »
Assuming you would never want double fire tool, the current system allows for 5 different engineering sets. If you include the Pipe/Mallet loadouts, the proposed system would allow for 6 unique loadouts. if you don't, you've cut it down to only four useful loadouts. Not a significant difference in loadout choices for engineer.

I think that the most important thing for crew is prioritisation. Engineers must juggle repairs, rebuilds, fire suppression / prevention, spotting, shooting, and buffing, all with tight, efficient movement while making use of cooldowns and anticipating damage.

Gunners have to shoot, spot, and still repair things, depending on ship and situation.

While engineers may seem overworked, I think it's more simply a difference in priorities among the classes (and more accurately, roles on the ship).

Offline Hoja Lateralus

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Re: Everyone gets an engie slot
« Reply #3 on: September 23, 2016, 10:07:52 am »
5 different engineering sets which include main (taken 90% of the time), buffgineer or spanbuffer(very rare, usually as 3rd engie), so practically 2 in vast majority of cases and 3 in general (with only difference between chem and ext, but chem is practically extinct now due to nerf and uselessness of the flamethrower). And the thing is that 3rd engineer with 4 slots could afford to potentially take two firefighting tools is match is filled with fire guns.

You yourself mentioned 3 additional things that engineer has to do. If we agree that engineering isn't that much fun (which for me is the case), especially maining, then we want gunners to fix more and engineers to shoot more. On the example of pyramidion I think we all would like engineering to be more like 2nd engie than like main downstairs.
It is especially visible during longer matches. Playing 50 minute match as a gunner? Not a biggie. As a captain? A bit stressful, but okay. As engie? OH FUCK MY MOUTH AND CALL ME BRUNO BECAUSE I'M NOT HURTING ENOUGH YET.

Gunner's repairing is usually limited to his own gun and sometimes quick jump for hull rebuild. But then again this is a bigger problem of weapon design (loading times) and ship design (location of components), and I'm assuming Muse won't be eager to change those in significant way on the altar of my idea.

In my experience engineer is overworked and not that fun and so far I've seen no good argument against this thesis.

Offline Solidusbucket

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Re: Everyone gets an engie slot
« Reply #4 on: September 23, 2016, 01:49:52 pm »

In my experience engineer is overworked and not that fun and so far I've seen no good argument against this thesis.

engineering is easy and it's fun.

that's my opinion and my argument.

Offline Huskarr

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Re: Everyone gets an engie slot
« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2016, 05:28:32 pm »
I like engineering. I have nearly 1600 games as engineer and the only time I feel overworked is when my coengineer is not worth their weight and should be thrown overboard.

But I would like everyone to have one more tool, even if it has to be a wrench. There are times where I wish I had a wrench, even as main.

Offline Inkjet

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Re: Everyone gets an engie slot
« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2016, 06:26:35 pm »
Engineer has a lot to do, but I wouldn't say that they're overworked. It's all about time management.

I've got a lot of things I could argue about but I'll try to stay on topic.

As engie? OH FUCK MY MOUTH AND CALL ME BRUNO BECAUSE I'M NOT HURTING ENOUGH YET.

Matches should NEVER take 50 minutes. The longest ones I've seen recently have been 20-30 minutes, and we were fighting tooth and nail against good opponents the entire time. Some of the best matches I've ever played have been like that.
If its not that sort of match, then either every ship isn't doing enough damage, or your ships aren't fighting at all. The first case comes down to builds or people doing their jobs (not even doing them WELL, just being on the guns they need to), in the second case, your ship shouldn't be taking damage. Pull up an audiobook or leave the match.