Author Topic: GUNS Balance Questions and Concerns v1.2  (Read 74531 times)

Offline Watchmaker

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Re: GUNS Balance Questions and Concerns v1.2
« Reply #225 on: May 27, 2013, 12:04:55 pm »
Hit markers: one hit marker is shown per gun per component hit, scaled according to the total damage dealt to that component by that gun in the last quarter second.

At one point in beta we had individual hit markers for every ray on the carronades &c, but the number made it impossible to actually judge how much damage you were doing to different components or between different guns. That system also sucked up an inordinate amount of bandwidth during firefights.

Offline Ofiach

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Re: GUNS Balance Questions and Concerns v1.2
« Reply #226 on: May 27, 2013, 12:15:51 pm »
So it really is only hitting 1 or 2 components? I would figure blasting a junkers hull from the side would at least show a hitmarker on the guns and not just the balloon and hull.

I guess I'm just not understanding how 40 projectiles could spread so little. Or is this more a cap from the hitmarker system?

I could just be expecting too much of a spread from the gun also.

Offline RearAdmiralZill

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Re: GUNS Balance Questions and Concerns v1.2
« Reply #227 on: May 27, 2013, 05:01:28 pm »
If you are using heavy, then it really shrinks that spread. Try charged from far out and watch a boat light up.

Offline uriak

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Re: GUNS Balance Questions and Concerns v1.2
« Reply #228 on: May 28, 2013, 08:22:40 am »
Hello, still relatively new to the game here, though I've played extensively since I hoped in.

I certainly don't have any view on the past deeds of weapons but I've tried all of them both as a gunner and a captain, here's my thoughts in a nutshell

-small weapons :

harpoon : tried it whenever it was available on a ship, added it on my setup a couple time. People seems finding a bit hard to hit with it, I suppose it's because of relative inexperience with it, so I can't really tell about the damage. The tow line on itself doesn't seem to control much, I think it can be a good thing only if you want a quick little fellow to stay with you.
flare gun : encoutered a bit, can't say much about damage. utility is perceptible on some maps

These two utility guns are really rare, but it's certainly mainly because of the lack of gun parts, so it's always hard to put one. Though some ships have arguably guns that are seldom used, so it' doesn't hurt much.

mercury/small flack/small mortar/small caronade/minigun/artemis : I think all these weapons are fine and play their respective role quite well.

flame thrower : I haven't lived through the day of infamous fire damage, currently, even if it's handy as a side gun, it doesn't seem to provide anything stellar. Artemis or caronade are good disablers that have a direct impact on crucial parts. As an escape weapon combined with tar, maybe... I dunno if there is a solution without making it overpowered. Maybe tweak damage matrix of fire to make it a bit more specialized.

carrousel : Just never seen the impact of this weapon. Seems to fit a niche between artemis and small flack? The projectile have some nasty dispersion and the overall effect is hard to judge. I don't see what is expected from this gun. Maybe it could work as a mini manticore, with more of a "barrage" mechanic.

- medium weapons

Lumberjack : I respect the weapon though it needs a decent gunner. Seems to lead to a bit boring gameplay, alas, as you want to stay away and pound a ballon deprived ship.
Twin caronade : a fun choice, less safe than the lumberjack but definitively has a role

Manticore : honestly this one seems overused, but it's easy to understand why, for it's the best disabler, does decent damage overall, needs only a small window of opportunity. Plus game wise it's impressive and fun to use, as no over weapon gives the "barrage" feeling. It's no wonder most goldfishes I see are sporting it, as it crippling power make it the "best" lone medium weapon.

Typhon : I have an issue with this one. It's the gun with the nearest "old artillery" feel, and it's quite hard to use at a distance with relative speeds. And when you manage to get your hits, you can't expect much unless the armor has been removed for you. So I guess in the hand of a decent gunner, and if you're running a combo with another ship/armor shreading guns available. Issue is the hull will often be removed when ships are closer and then you'd miss the secondary. I've seen and performed kills with a typhon, but it needs a perfect window for use. All over medium weapons have a crippling effect that this one lacks. In the end, it boils down to the feeling that you've not granted much for those difficult long distance shots, whereas with a mercury I get the feeling I'm really putting the enemy through an hard time, wrecking armor and parts in a precise manner. And if you end up in medium range, why not use manticora or lumberjacks anyway?

Of course it may be all a biased feeling and specialized weapons are more powerful when used with combined fleets, but most of the games are quite chaotic. I like to experiment with weapons but so far typhon and carousels are kinda letdowns for me.

Offline awkm

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Re: GUNS Balance Questions and Concerns v1.2
« Reply #229 on: May 28, 2013, 01:03:48 pm »
The carronade hits multiple components at a time.  As Watchmaker said:

Hit markers: one hit marker is shown per gun per component hit, scaled according to the total damage dealt to that component by that gun in the last quarter second.

At one point in beta we had individual hit markers for every ray on the carronades &c, but the number made it impossible to actually judge how much damage you were doing to different components or between different guns. That system also sucked up an inordinate amount of bandwidth during firefights.

It's not 40 buck shots.  It's something lower.  But it doesn't matter since we can't display all the hitmarkers, therefore we don't tell you how many.  Extraneous information.

The damage for the LJ was also more when it had 4 counts of ammo.  The total damage output from one clip is entirely intentional.

Also, please keep in mind that we're actual human beings at Muse Games and we go out of our way to interact with our community because we value the time you spend with our work.  We listen and we take into account what you say.  So think about that before you post something.  So thank you to everyone who posts something in the vein of "here are some thoughts that I'd like to share with you."  At the end of the day, it's up to me to figure out what makes the most sense to do that won't blow the game up.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2013, 01:25:36 pm by awkm »

Offline Moriarty

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Re: GUNS Balance Questions and Concerns v1.2
« Reply #230 on: May 28, 2013, 11:47:03 pm »
Typhon : I have an issue with this one. It's the gun with the nearest "old artillery" feel, and it's quite hard to use at a distance with relative speeds. And when you manage to get your hits, you can't expect much unless the armor has been removed for you ... In the end, it boils down to the feeling that you've not granted much for those difficult long distance shots

As someone who's spent more time on this gun than is healthy, and who saw the horror of the Fjords tournament. There can be no doubt the re-balance was necessary, I do however have two questions I'd like to pose to awkm and would very much like him to respond to:

1) Do you still think the arm time is necessary on the typhon now that we have seen how the new armour mod behaves in practice?
2) Given the above armour mod and the difficulty hitting at distance, would you ever consider bumping the maximum range of the gun?

Personally i know my biggest frustration is the range rather than the arm time, though i bring up the arm time because i honestly don't know if its needed.   
« Last Edit: May 28, 2013, 11:51:16 pm by Moriarty »

Offline Captain Smollett

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Re: GUNS Balance Questions and Concerns v1.2
« Reply #231 on: May 29, 2013, 12:03:39 am »
I think I probably said this before but I actually find the arming time an interesting and fun mechanic for the flak since you can help protect yourself from this giant gun by going nose to nose with it.

That being said, for balance purposes, I do think the arming time should be reduced.

More range would be interesting, would definitely make the gun better than it is now.


Carronade projectiles... Must be 20, kicking myself since that info used to be public and I can't remember anymore and never wrote it down.

Offline Captain Smollett

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Re: GUNS Balance Questions and Concerns v1.2
« Reply #232 on: May 29, 2013, 12:05:29 am »
Also awkm thanks for taking the time to have and read a thread like this.

This game is awesome but it's really the Muse team itself that's kept me enjoying the game for as long as I have.

Offline Moriarty

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Re: GUNS Balance Questions and Concerns v1.2
« Reply #233 on: May 29, 2013, 05:06:25 am »
Muse as a whole have been pretty great that's for sure.

Offline uriak

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Re: GUNS Balance Questions and Concerns v1.2
« Reply #234 on: May 29, 2013, 05:45:59 am »

As someone who's spent more time on this gun than is healthy, and who saw the horror of the Fjords tournament. There can be no doubt the re-balance was necessary, I do however have two questions I'd like to pose to awkm and would very much like him to respond to:

1) Do you still think the arm time is necessary on the typhon now that we have seen how the new armour mod behaves in practice?
2) Given the above armour mod and the difficulty hitting at distance, would you ever consider bumping the maximum range of the gun?

Personally i know my biggest frustration is the range rather than the arm time, though i bring up the arm time because i honestly don't know if its needed.   

Still feels like a niche weapon somehow. When I first manned it, my though was that it was a large mercury, but it wasn't. Actually, both the visual and the physics of the weapon call for a piercing type... when actually it does the opposite. I haven't known the "horror"; I guess it was a time when battles were decided by afar? From what I've seen now, it's not the case. The reload time, the movement restriction and the fire rate seems to make the Typhon below closer range weapons, as it should be. And if I'm at mid-long range and can hit, why not use a lumberjack?

Offline Letus

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Re: GUNS Balance Questions and Concerns v1.2
« Reply #235 on: May 30, 2013, 11:14:01 pm »

As someone who's spent more time on this gun than is healthy, and who saw the horror of the Fjords tournament. There can be no doubt the re-balance was necessary, I do however have two questions I'd like to pose to awkm and would very much like him to respond to:

1) Do you still think the arm time is necessary on the typhon now that we have seen how the new armour mod behaves in practice?
2) Given the above armour mod and the difficulty hitting at distance, would you ever consider bumping the maximum range of the gun?

Personally i know my biggest frustration is the range rather than the arm time, though i bring up the arm time because i honestly don't know if its needed.   

Still feels like a niche weapon somehow. When I first manned it, my though was that it was a large mercury, but it wasn't. Actually, both the visual and the physics of the weapon call for a piercing type... when actually it does the opposite. I haven't known the "horror"; I guess it was a time when battles were decided by afar? From what I've seen now, it's not the case. The reload time, the movement restriction and the fire rate seems to make the Typhon below closer range weapons, as it should be. And if I'm at mid-long range and can hit, why not use a lumberjack?


Killing power.

You hit a ship without hull armour with the Typhon flak, it's gonna go away quickly.

You hit a ship without hull armour with a Lumberjack, it's gonna have the ability to kill you still...probably get it's hull back up before your next clip goes in...and by then (if they were good/able) they'd be on you and stick inside that 110 min mark (ammo pending.)  While the Typhon...they'll probably be dead.

As with the arming time and such, I would wonder what would happen if we went back to the old numbers, but kept the arming time.

Offline Charlemagne Montigue

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Re: GUNS Balance Questions and Concerns v1.2
« Reply #236 on: May 31, 2013, 05:37:15 pm »
Yah, one thing I keep seeing over and over again that is becoming a problem are goldfish with hwachas on the front. So many matches I play, goldfish just charge straight at you, hit with hwachas to cripple you and then ram for hull damage. If they are using any kind of teamwork, the other teammate just hits you with some kind of hull damage/armor penetrating combo. This hwacha/ramming combo to completely disable a ship is just getting old, i could possibly see it as a last ditch effort, but no, it's become a main strategy. Especially paired with the goldfish, because it is kind of the medium ship, it can out speed most ships so avoiding it is nigh impossible. And even if you were to try and maneuver, if they get any where near you, your finished because hwacha disables everything in one shot. All of your engines or an entire side of you ships guns.

Enough ranting.

Hwacha needs to be balanced, there is a reason just about every ship that has heavy weapons is laden with them.
Perhaps less splash damage, could help, so that the entire side of your ship or all of your engines don't get knocked out immediately unless the rockets actually hit these things.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2013, 06:01:37 pm by Charlemagne Montigue »

Offline uriak

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Re: GUNS Balance Questions and Concerns v1.2
« Reply #237 on: May 31, 2013, 07:15:00 pm »
Yeah the splash is annoying, especially when you notice even weapon that aren't facing the hit zone are destroyed. For instance, often when facing an incoming goldfish I prepare to turn my junker to use the side that wasn't facing it... only to notice weapons on both sides were disabled...

And firing wise, even if it needs some little experience, it's ability to unload all at once is actually a pretty hefty advantage. Other weapons requires a valid line of sight for the duration of their clip.
It's probably better to fix it a bit rather than starting an arm's race with other medium weapons, though.

Offline Captain Smollett

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Re: GUNS Balance Questions and Concerns v1.2
« Reply #238 on: May 31, 2013, 07:15:27 pm »
I have never had a problem beating a team with a Hwacha fish.

They lack a lot of dps.  Often I'll just outright ignore it and team up against their teammate.  They may disable one ship momentarily but heir teammate will be dead before they reload and my engineers (always bring three with spanners against a good hwacha opponent) will already have guns up and firing for a 2v1.

Alternatively in a 1v1 tell your Artemis/Mercury/Gat gunner to shoot out the Hwacha; by the time it shows up for the ram it'll be getting shredded to pieces and defenseless

Offline Charlemagne Montigue

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Re: GUNS Balance Questions and Concerns v1.2
« Reply #239 on: May 31, 2013, 08:05:43 pm »
I have never had a problem beating a team with a Hwacha fish.

They lack a lot of dps.  Often I'll just outright ignore it and team up against their teammate.  They may disable one ship momentarily but heir teammate will be dead before they reload and my engineers (always bring three with spanners against a good hwacha opponent) will already have guns up and firing for a 2v1.

Alternatively in a 1v1 tell your Artemis/Mercury/Gat gunner to shoot out the Hwacha; by the time it shows up for the ram it'll be getting shredded to pieces and defenseless

In a 2v1 scenario, you are right that is not a problem. But let's say I don't have a good team mate, which happens from time to time. 1v1 is a different animal. Given plenty of time yes, you are right we have a Merc on the front of our Junkers, and we can usually take it out if they try and play chicken. But if the Goldfish captain has any sense, he won't do that, he wants to go for max damage and hit us in the rear for engines, or sides for guns. Ambush for the ram. I suppose 3 engineers might have to do the trick. However it is kind of sad, that simply because an opponent has a Hwacha (and if they can they will) that Gunners pretty much become useless.