GUNS Balance Questions and Concerns v1.2

[Squash]

squash bugs.

Squash bugs us all.

[Ofiach]

So I have to ask the god awful question that will get me flamed into oblivion.

Is the lumberjack just a bit too powerful? 2 shots pop balloons and there are 4 more in the clip. I don't know the exact carryover from hitting the downed balloon to hull damage but that seems a tad.... umm...... OP. It really isn't as hard to shoot as alot of people say (especially with lesmok) and just a couple hours of practice can make you beyond deadly. I've shot the gun in maybe 5 matches and there really seems to be nothing to it as long as my captain isn't spinning circles for no reason.

The heavy flak is a much harder heavy gun to shoot and *ducks behind desk* the lumberjack seems about as hard to hit with as a hwacha.

[AWildGodzilla]

So I have to ask the god awful question that will get me flamed into oblivion.

Is the lumberjack just a bit too powerful? 2 shots pop balloons and there are 4 more in the clip. I don't know the exact carryover from hitting the downed balloon to hull damage but that seems a tad.... umm...... OP. It really isn't as hard to shoot as alot of people say (especially with lesmok) and just a couple hours of practice can make you beyond deadly. I've shot the gun in maybe 5 matches and there really seems to be nothing to it as long as my captain isn't spinning circles for no reason.

The heavy flak is a much harder heavy gun to shoot and *ducks behind desk* the lumberjack seems about as hard to hit with as a hwacha.

Ive Seen it, Ive used it, Ive killed with it one of the most unbalanced weapons in the game if you have a mearly good gunner your basicly invincible. Maybe ammo cap decrease ? or a bitch of a dmg nerf because to me it seems like a weapon that makes all other weapons look kinda lame.  especialy with lesmok Easy mode  ..

[Captain Smollett]

Don't forget about the arming timer.  As a member of a team that frequently uses this weapon I'm not going to break down the intricacies of flying against one but it's not as hard to defeat as you think.

It takes three shots to break an unrepaired balloon and 4 to break one that's being maintained.  Anyone can learn to hit with the gun but it takes a high % of hits and a very accurate gunner to make it effective before it becomes completely useless.

This gun has gone through a great deal of balancing and is in in my opinion well balanced.

Just because a gun is effective doesn't mean it's op. In the past there have been a great many guns that were actually well balanced nerfed into oblivion because people complained before they took the time to step back and evaluate or learn how to counter them; these on the large happened to mostly be disabling guns (flame thrower, carousel, carronade) because they irritated newer players, the lumberjack is one of the only disabling guns remaining the still fits into the competitive meta.

I'm of the mindset of bringing more weapons and greater depth into competitive play.  Guns that are obviously over powered should be brought under control, but awkm is quite good at what he does and we really don't have any of those in the game right now.  If anything I'd love to see the community clamoring to buff the guns that are out of use, not nerf the weapons that are still effective.

[Ofiach]

Right now it's a merc field field gun. Also the arming timer is a complete joke with incendiary ammo on. You pretty much have to be in hump range before the it stops being effective.

Like I said I've used it in 5 matches and it takes alot less practice then it is made out to need. I watched some vids of the old flak and that seemed to be a tad harder to shoot than the current lumberjack and was absolutely raped by the nerfhammer.

The lumber isn't artemis post 1.2 OP but it is a bit out of line. 4 shells and keeping the reload time is a completely reasonable change, alot more reasonable than the absolute slam the heavy flak got.

[N-Sunderland]

I watched some vids of the old flak and that seemed to be a tad harder to shoot than the current lumberjack and was absolutely raped by the nerfhammer.

I'm gonna have to disagree with you there. As somebody who used the heavy flak a lot pre-nerf, I can attest to the fact that it was an extremely easy gun to hit with, regardless of the range. That contributed to it getting nerfed.

[Captain Smollett]

Man, you can see the videos, and you can live the videos.

Old flak was insanely awesome, it was definitely op but man was it awesome.  Just one flak was more powerful than anything anybody could bring and it was far easier to shoot than the current heavy flak and consequently lumberjack as well.  It could smash armor, spill over into the hull and finish off an opponent.  You could one volley just about anyone with a galleon.  You were extremely powerful at long range and.... even more powerful at close range!!!!!

Ahh the old Flak, people loved it, and hated it, and loved to hate it, but everyone admitted it was damn gratifying to use.  Good memories.

[TehPao]

I watched some vids of the old flak and that seemed to be a tad harder to shoot than the current lumberjack and was absolutely raped by the nerfhammer.

I'm gonna have to disagree with you there. As somebody who used the heavy flak a lot pre-nerf, I can attest to the fact that it was an extremely easy gun to hit with, regardless of the range. That contributed to it getting nerfed.

What about all of his other points?

[AWildGodzilla]

I watched some vids of the old flak and that seemed to be a tad harder to shoot than the current lumberjack and was absolutely raped by the nerfhammer.

I'm gonna have to disagree with you there. As somebody who used the heavy flak a lot pre-nerf, I can attest to the fact that it was an extremely easy gun to hit with, regardless of the range. That contributed to it getting nerfed.

What about all of his other points?

[Mattilald Anguisad]

Saying Lumberjack is op is almost like saying Scyla is op. The only diffirence is that people have learned how to effectively shoot Lumberjack (witch is admittedly easier), while they still use Scyla in close range becouse they cant shoot it. While it does have less damage than Light Flak per shot and it is harder to hit with, it does have NO spread (thus needs no heavy clips), significantly better rate of fire and quadruple clip size (if you hit consistently you have double DPS of the light flak).

As for merc and Heavy Flak. Merc does almost no permahull damage, and heavy flak in 1.1.2 or 1.1.3 when I joined was as easy to hit with (IF you had lesmok rounds) as it is with Mercury Fild gun right now (without lesmok), back then Heavy Flak had more damage than it does now and no arming time. (BTW merc got weaker and harder to shoot with since then as well).

[N-Sunderland]

I watched some vids of the old flak and that seemed to be a tad harder to shoot than the current lumberjack and was absolutely raped by the nerfhammer.

I'm gonna have to disagree with you there. As somebody who used the heavy flak a lot pre-nerf, I can attest to the fact that it was an extremely easy gun to hit with, regardless of the range. That contributed to it getting nerfed.

What about all of his other points?

What if I was only really interested in that one, and I'm leaving the others to people who will express themselves better on the matter?

[Morblitz]

Please don't take the lumberjack away from me

[N-Sunderland]

Please don't take the lumberjack away from me

I declare the lumberjack OP... But only in the hands of Morblitz.

I mean, seriously. You see my ship pop out 1000 metres away, and half a second later my balloon is gone. There's no escaping it. It's like a horror movie.

[Morblitz]

The balloon, it taunts me, all unpopped and full of air.

It must pay.

[RearAdmiralZill]

It's really too bad Yiski hasn't been able to show off his lumberjack skills yet. Soon.....

Letus as well is very adept at lumbering murder across the map.

On to the points. I will agree that the arming times for flak and lumberjack feel, reversed? I'd go so far to say that flak needs a slight reduction like the lumberjack got in the arming time to make it more viable. With its current damage against armor, I'm not very scared of flak at all unless its doubled up on a galleon with people who can aim it.

Beyond that though. As Smollet said, it takes 3-4 shots to pop the balloon with lumber at full health. The lumberjack's horizontal arc is a joke, so always approach them at an angle, and force the ship firing at you to turn. That in itself will throw the shots off a bit as well. Rely less on the arming time and more on the bad arc. Remember that being above it does you no good, as the upward arc on a lumberjack is insane, and you wont ever be too high for it.

Also, you forget all the bad qualities you get when using incendiary, like decreased damage and smaller clips.

If you really want to fight one at long range, well the best bet is having one of your own and shooting better. Otherwise, keep it disabled and make sure your pilot isn't charging head first. That just makes the shots so much easier.

The bigger problem here is, and don't take this wrong, but many people are hitting the point where running a gat/flak pyra and flying straight into enemies isn't going to work, and strategy starts getting required, not just something you can forget about and ram into everything for wins. And I'm not saying that to anyone personally. Calling something OP in this game is a big claim, and youll need a lot of support to really get Muse agreeing.

I dare to say the Flak needs a bit of a buff more than lumberjack needs nerfing. Even out the arming times to start. I need to use them more to see if it needs anything else. I will say that a heavy Flak shot on bare hull, resulting in a ship's demise, is a glorious thing to see.