Level requirement to create clans

[Schwalbe]

The only fluff-talker here is you, Ceresbane.

Get some help dude, because there's something really wrong. I know what I'm talking about, I'm dealing with all that psychiatric gubbins since ever. Because nobody gives a banana about your efficiency, when most of what you are doing is berating everyone, everywhere.

You are acting so religiously about your fluffy elitism, I want to waft you in the face with equal desire I wish I could waft every ubercatholic sod, treating people like fluff because they don't agree with them. Restrict this, restrict that, heck, let's put the bleeding game out of the Steam Shop, so no noob can buy and play the game until it gets out of novice.

Seriously, Ceresbane?
banana off.

[Lu Lu]

Um...

Maybe little late to say something here, but I feel that we're all avoiding the elephant in the room, not just for this idea, but a large swath of ideas regarding both vets and novices.  There's a real double standard here nd no matter how much we insist upon it not existing, that won't change the facts of the matter.

When a vet is salty at a novice, they're being elitist, but when a novice is salty at a vet, they just don't understand the game so its ok

When a vet vents for a bit, they're damaging the community, but when a novice throws a hissy fit, they're just struggling to get the game

When a vet is at their limit and trying to find a way to fix the game, they're being impatient, but when novices make idiotic comments and such, they're providing a fresh insight.

Honestly, how long are we going to kid ourselves?  The sooner we address this issue, the happier we'll be, and the sooner too.

Personally, i think a level requirement to make a clan is not a very good idea, but it does touch on the underlying issue in the community.

[nanoduckling]

Ceres there are other criteria beyond skill at the game that impact recruitment. You can be a super mlg sniper no scope megapro lumberjack from 8km magic gunner, if you are an ass and I'm the Bard you are doing your test flying with you aint joining. In fact the Bards are pretty explicit, skill is not a factor in our recruitment, just if you are a good fit for the clan or not (of course that doesn't mean a rejection from the Bards means you are an ass, not a good fit can mean lots of things). As far as I'm aware the Romans have a similar policy, as well as many other clans.

And I would hardly call competitive teams having entry requirements elitism, at least in the pejorative problem causing sense. The kind of elitism that I have a problem with is when the moral value of a person is determined by their talent, intellect, or other minimally-malleable mental quality. With a few notable exceptions I do not see many vets or clans contributing to that, even among those who have experienced considerable frustration with novice players.

[Keyvias]

Hey guys,
Let's tone down some rhetoric here, we can definitely disagree, but lets try to take a step back overall.

On topic though.
I think Luharis is right.
There is definitely a double standard, but I think it's easily explained. When a novice starts venting, getting salty and making stupid comments, they leave.
I mean I know I can't name the "bad" novices (though I've definitely seen many)
but I can tell you the names of the "bad" vets.

So it's easier to be frustrated with you can know basically X vet is a trouble maker and always has, whereas yeah there are frustrating novices, but the ones I saw are already gone.

I mean even we all still roll our eyes a bit in the streams we do or when we get the question "so when will you add boarding." We definitely don't think "what fresh insight"

I'm personally against a level requirement to make clan because I think a group of friends should be able to start making their mark and name as a clan whenever they're ready. I can't say I know the backstory of every clan, but I doubt all of them were "and now we are experts and will spread that message."

As far as 4 packs, their clan would dissolve after a week, you need 5 people to keep the clan going. We chose that number because we wanted it above a four pack. So the 4-pack guys actually have to make friends or recruit at least one other guy.

For names and tags being used up by inactive clans, if this is a huge issue now we can look at ways to solve this (clans with no active members) have their tag up for grabs until a person from the clan signs back on.

[Richard LeMoon]

I strongly disagree with the 5 number in a game centered around 4 people. That is literally encouraging a 'fifth wheel' atmosphere. NOW add the new rematch vote. You make a 5 person clan. 4 people are generally going to be on one ship, leaving the other person alone. If the lobby does not go for a rematch, the clan will have to make a new crewform, creating a longer wait in the queue. If the lobby DOES rematch, one clan member will be on the other team. This is not how new players want to play.

You should drop the clan member count to 4, make the clan name/tag claimable if the number of active members drops below 4 for 3 months, and change the way clan tags are displayed to differentiate between new clans and long established clans.

[nanoduckling]

I'd second what Richard said, I'd rather we did something to deal with the long term cruft but made it easier for four packs to start their own small clans and keep them if they keep playing.

[Mod Josie]

I have taken to one of the posts on this page because of its completely over-the-line vitriol and aggressiveness. Our community standards do still apply on the forums and we do respond to moderation calls.

Please, let's keep everything in the high brow spirit that we wish to see the whole of the community adopt. This is a feedback thread and we don't want to have to wade through venom to squeeze good ideas out. Please play nice.

Thanks,
Josie

[DJ Logicalia]

I quite like the term "Banana off". I think I'll be using that

[Arturo Sanchez]

Ceres there are other criteria beyond skill at the game that impact recruitment. You can be a super mlg sniper no scope megapro lumberjack from 8km magic gunner, if you are an ass and I'm the Bard you are doing your test flying with you aint joining. In fact the Bards are pretty explicit, skill is not a factor in our recruitment, just if you are a good fit for the clan or not (of course that doesn't mean a rejection from the Bards means you are an ass, not a good fit can mean lots of things). As far as I'm aware the Romans have a similar policy, as well as many other clans.

And I would hardly call competitive teams having entry requirements elitism, at least in the pejorative problem causing sense. The kind of elitism that I have a problem with is when the moral value of a person is determined by their talent, intellect, or other minimally-malleable mental quality. With a few notable exceptions I do not see many vets or clans contributing to that, even among those who have experienced considerable frustration with novice players.

That being said. A person in your clan is usually a person who has demonstrated to your clan officer or leader that they can actually function amongst you as a crew member. Hence why most clans don't grox up their own numbers with dead weight.

"function amongst you as a crew member"

I fully acknowledge not everyone is a rydr. But still doesn't change the fact that everyone has criteria for entry.

@swal
bandwagon hypeman life is hype.

Unlike richard here... the comment on the 5 member system is definitely something to explore on alternatives. If I'm following your point correctly... 8 members would be the solution. A middle ground of what muse intends. While reducing it it 4 might pose a dead clan problem.

Not that thats the single biggest creator of dead clans. Frankly I put in the suggestion for level requirement because a new player and hence new leader doesn't have the experience to be effective and decisive. Much less run a group. With levels comes experience in this field that the game teaches. And seeing as that person has stayed in the game.

It demonstrates they're going in for the long haul. And hence the clan created will be.


As for the baby clans-with groups so small I don't really see the point if friendlists and parties are designed specifically for that. Baby clans are just may flies that exist and then die, leaving behind corpses that other new clan leaders have to walk egg shells on.


But if I were to simply say what end game objective I'm after. I frankly just wanna see [NaCl] functioning within the pub scene once more. Simply because the tag is amusing and beautiful and its sad that because of the system, I will never see it again. Not that the salty seamen were worth of any note as players mind.

[Solidusbucket]

Did you try emailing the developers about getting that clan tag available?

[nanoduckling]

Oh Ceres...

"You can't act like the elitism is there because vets are being meanies when you, ALL OF YOU, are part of the problem that you imply to be against. Otherwise you'd have your ranks full of every kind of player."

Are you suggesting we don't have a wide variety of players in the Bards? Keep in mind I know what problems I'm against, so I know what sort of players I'd want to see make up the Bards... Worth emailing to see if the NaCl tag can be freed up if it is no longer in use though.

[Arturo Sanchez]

Oh Ceres...

"You can't act like the elitism is there because vets are being meanies when you, ALL OF YOU, are part of the problem that you imply to be against. Otherwise you'd have your ranks full of every kind of player."

Are you suggesting we don't have a wide variety of players in the Bards? Keep in mind I know what problems I'm against, so I know what sort of players I'd want to see make up the Bards... Worth emailing to see if the NaCl tag can be freed up if it is no longer in use though.

Just to make it clear. I don't want the tag personally.

I will always be the leader of [AI]

[Richard LeMoon]

I think a lot of people here, devs included, are under the false impression that clans are actually worth anything. They simply are not to most people. People join games to have fun, not join a clan.  If it is not hard to form a clan with a few friends you want to play with, its a bonus. If you make it hard, it is an irritation.

'Clans' in this game are not special enough to limit forming one. They offer nothing tangible.

[Solidusbucket]

'Clans' in this game are not special enough to limit forming one. They offer nothing tangible.

They offer gold plated repair tools. I am not trying to be mean / a dick. But, that is tangible.

Obviously Muse implemented clan levels for a reason beyond trying to fit in with any other MMO.

Clans keep players in the game. Real bonds are formed within clans.

Furthermore, Muse takes clans seriously. They will devote many man hours ensuring that clans stay intact ().

As far as limiting the formation: of course Muse does not want to limit the formation beyond: "4 pack purchase clans" again - clans are good for player retention.

I disagree with limiting the formation of clans.

WoW had a petition thing for Guilds (clans) Member that? People going around Iron Forge / Orgrimmer paying gold to make a clan? Shitty.

[Richard LeMoon]

Cosmetics are not tangible to gameplay. That is what I meant. Other games with clans/guilds/factions/etc generally offer something extra that people get for being in the clan that actually effects how the game plays to some extent. I have never been in a clan, yet have everything anybody in a clan has other than a gold hammer (yay?). You could have an external clan with no ingame name/tag and still have all the benefits aside from the gold hammer.

Moving on to your next point while keeping with your first point, clans are simply and organizational tool in Guns, and not a very good one. And no, I don't think they did make clan levels for any other reason than to fit in with what other games are doing. Take my hypothetical example of a clan that forms outside the game, never gets an ingame name, competes in and wins all competitions. Levels mean nothing, and are only a gimmick to try to give people a shallow reason to grow their clan.

I'll combine the next three points. Clans also make people leave the game en-masse. How many active large clans are there now? The hours have been wasted, due to all the points above. They are simply not worth it as they are. Not being able to form a clan with a few friends makes more people leave earlier than it keeps long term. I can't count the number of people that just got the game with a few friends and asked why they need five members for a four-pack game with a four person crew. What answer do you give them?

"Muse wants you to make more friends."

That is a dumb answer. That does not help. The issue is that it IS the answer. It is a cosmetic effort to give something value above the intrinsic value it has by limiting availability. It promotes invite spams to get that one more random person you don't know, don't care about, and will likely never talk to again. Adding someone to your friends list means more.

So, again, creating a clan IN the game offers nothing TO the game, so such high value should not be placed on it.