Author Topic: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"  (Read 76152 times)

Offline Solidusbucket

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Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
« Reply #105 on: March 21, 2016, 07:13:46 am »
Im gonna assume, given my many fun filled nights with him, that it contained something along the lines of him informing them of his intoxicated state.  :P

« Last Edit: March 21, 2016, 07:20:36 am by Solidusbucket »

Offline Insio

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Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
« Reply #106 on: March 21, 2016, 12:51:29 pm »
How about from now on, we test 1-2 things, really, really, REALLY well, over a few weeks then put it in. Do that all the time, just one or two things, rather 6 months and 12 things.

This.

Testing one or two things at the time would also make it a lot easier to give and review feedback once the change(s) is added to the game, and gamebreakers like the current (unless you fixed it by now) lochnagar could be avoided. I'm sure some changes would lead to necessary compensations in other areas, but even then the changes should start small and later be adjusted/corrected if needed. Especially when it comes to something being implemented in the game. Nobody likes change. ;)

I also don't see the need to be so radical with the changes. For example, why not just start by allowing loch to fire two or three shots before it breaks to begin with? Didn't work? Ok, let's try to give it two more shots and see if that's better, or maybe changing the damage output or something else to achieve the wanted results.

I have no idea if this would take up more of your time, but pushing a lot of changes regarding different areas could easily result in unwanted results due to changes not being properly tested *together* before making it to the game. The pyra nerf is a good example (although on a smaller scale since it didn't affect anything other than the pyra).

Offline Atruejedi

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Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
« Reply #107 on: March 21, 2016, 01:26:39 pm »
I highly recommend you put that on an open google doc and show off your work with everyone.

What did you tell them, jedi? I'm intrigued and kind of scared

Im gonna assume, given my many fun filled nights with him, that it contained something along the lines of him informing them of his intoxicated state.  :P

By request:

Grab a coffee: Massive, In-Depth Balance Patch Feedback
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1_12Iv_pqULb9yDkIal9hyoiMuN_G2aTLGks9mU6r_54/edit

Offline Solidusbucket

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Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
« Reply #108 on: March 21, 2016, 02:58:35 pm »
Wow....

If you disagree with any of this: dont say anything. Jedi has their attention. Please allow ALL his ideas in this document the chance to be implemented. We may TEST them. If we dont like them, then you may voice your opinion.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2016, 03:12:33 pm by Solidusbucket »

Offline ZnC

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Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
« Reply #109 on: March 21, 2016, 03:05:57 pm »
He insta-KO'd me with his wall(s) of text.

While I not gonna read everything, I think jedi has a generally accurate and fair view of the game. I already lost all my energy doing the numbers for Loch and constantly saying all it needs is Rate of Fire reduction.

Offline Solidusbucket

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Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
« Reply #110 on: March 21, 2016, 03:27:10 pm »
I read it all. It is a short read. My favorite part is his vision of a spire rising from the depths of a beseiged fort and providing necessary fire support. Spinning effortlessly while barrages of projectiles decimate an assaulting enemy.

A mobula, seeking to destroy this fort spots the spire. It begins firing from long range. The spire's own gunners dial in their shots. The mobula's thin profile no longer provides it security in its current posture. It lacks the ability to dive down so instead charges forward, reaching its top speed and forcing the spire to back peddle.

The mobula closes the distance in seconds and the gunners swap to close range. A brawl commences but not before the spire drops down quicker than a rock, allowing the balloon to protect its nimble armor.

A squid comes in fast and low. A once brave pyramidion pilot reduced to using a squid attempts to ram the spire. He blows up insantly. The thing is 3 balloons supported by 3 steel catwalks and a few broken guardrails. Poor guy.

« Last Edit: March 21, 2016, 03:38:08 pm by Solidusbucket »

Offline Insio

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Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
« Reply #111 on: March 21, 2016, 04:48:56 pm »
Grab a coffee: Massive, In-Depth Balance Patch Feedback
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1_12Iv_pqULb9yDkIal9hyoiMuN_G2aTLGks9mU6r_54/edit

Can I buy you a beer?

Seriously though, this is spot on.

Offline Richard LeMoon

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Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
« Reply #112 on: March 21, 2016, 06:39:24 pm »
I see a lot of my influence in that.

The one thing I don't agree on is the Pyramidian mass. It is now only 20 tons lighter than the Galleon and double the weight of the Spire. The two largest ships in the game containing the largest amount of wood and metal (including the guns and engines). Why? So it can ram. I would much rather see it switch masses with the Spire (lending more to the vertical city-defense platform) and give it high acceleration to compensate for the loss of mass and let the engines work for longer under damage. This would give it the ability to give multiple 'punches' or high powered grinding into an enemy.

Offline Daft Loon

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Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
« Reply #113 on: March 21, 2016, 06:42:22 pm »
I see a lot of my influence in that.

The one thing I don't agree on is the Pyramidian mass. It is now only 20 tons lighter than the Galleon and double the weight of the Spire. The two largest ships in the game containing the largest amount of wood and metal (including the guns and engines). Why? So it can ram. I would much rather see it switch masses with the Spire (lending more to the vertical city-defense platform) and give it high acceleration to compensate for the loss of mass and let the engines work for longer under damage. This would give it the ability to give multiple 'punches' or high powered grinding into an enemy.

Clearly the cylinders on the side of the pyra that look like fuel tanks or something are actually full of lead as ramming ballast (don't ask how it stays in the air).

Offline GeoRmr

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Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
« Reply #114 on: March 21, 2016, 07:27:57 pm »
I'm just going to email muse and refer them to jedis post and google doc
10 out of 10 nail on the head feedback
maybe if everyone emails them linking it some good will happen

Offline Hoja Lateralus

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Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
« Reply #115 on: March 21, 2016, 08:22:56 pm »
I've asked this previously, but it was a small part of a longer discussion. I really feel like folks would benefit from an answer to it as it underlies a lot of the issues I see here.

Why are small, frequent incremental balance changes seen as less desirable than big occasional ones?

Because of Muse's method. As they have said, their basis for balance changes are in-game statistics from non-competetive matches. Therefore it is more reasonable to wait and collect more data to prove or disprove validity of your balance changes. That's basically what Howard or Matthew have said, that perhaps they have waited for too long, but basically they wanted X months of time (collecting stats) before reacting. That's why they didn't react to people's feedback regarding pyra nerf. Since community is small perhaps a month-worth of data isn't statistically significant (enough). If Devs relied more on feedback than on stats, they could do the monthly changes.
Personally I think various patches prove that this way of thinking is ineffective. As some of you pointed out - it makes Muse buff the competetive meta-ship and nerf the competetive no-no ship. Nuff said.

Offline nanoduckling

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Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
« Reply #116 on: March 22, 2016, 07:27:18 am »
That's fine in principle Disaster, but that is why I asked about the power analysis (I know you largely agree with my perspective here but I want to explain further my reasoning).

I did a back of the envelope calculation on how much data a typical days worth of GoI playing will generate and it is way bigger than any data set I ever get to work with. ~200 players online at a time, typical game time plus lobby ~30 mins, ~20 players per game, so ~20 games an hour makes ~500 games a day. That means a month gives ~15,000 games to work with. I wish I had those kinds of sample sizes for my work.

I'm not one of the folks who is grumpy that stats play a big role in balancing, although I share the concern that stats are being used without sufficient context. I worry if the stats are of sufficient quality and specificity to do the job being asked of them.

I also think balancing for low level play is foolhardy, but Muse tell us it is a mix. Well I would like to know what kind of mix. Is it 60-40, or 90-10? Because if the balance changes are going to be almost entirely determined by novice game statistics then my input and the input of other experienced players is mostly a waste of time. I'm happy to help pull the tractor out of the mud, but I need to know enough of us are pulling towards the road. If most of the pulling is just towards an entirely different patch of mud then I'm not sure I'm of much use.

I would like to know a bit more about what those stats actually are and how big a role they play though.

Offline Chang'e

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Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
« Reply #117 on: March 22, 2016, 07:52:37 am »
Atruejedi would like us to know that ramming and receiving rams feels good.

Sorry. Just had to get that out of my system. It's a good read, and Muse did say they're reading it, so hopefully we'll see it implemented in the near future.

Offline ZnC

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Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
« Reply #118 on: March 22, 2016, 10:07:14 am »
I'm just going to email muse and refer them to jedis post and google doc
10 out of 10 nail on the head feedback
maybe if everyone emails them linking it some good will happen

Geo, Keyvias told jedi to share his feedback with the community. So I'm pretty sure they already know. :x

Offline GeoRmr

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Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
« Reply #119 on: March 23, 2016, 03:39:53 am »
I'm just going to email muse and refer them to jedis post and google doc
10 out of 10 nail on the head feedback
maybe if everyone emails them linking it some good will happen

Geo, Keyvias told jedi to share his feedback with the community. So I'm pretty sure they already know. :x

It's about showing that we support it.