Author Topic: How would YOU nerf the Mobula?  (Read 30813 times)

Offline PixelatedVolume

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Re: How would YOU nerf the Mobula?
« Reply #60 on: March 18, 2016, 02:19:34 pm »
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P.S. Let's define ship roles more clearly. See my subjective number suggestions for the Mobula and other ships here:

Nerfing the signature strength of the mobula (vertical lift) would do the opposite of defining ship roles more clearly.

If we want more defined ship roles, then gaps in other forms of manuverability/mass/armor values would need to be expanded to match the current strength of the mobula.

Think about the following:

...

This would solidify each ship in a specific role by giving them one or two things they excel at (minus the goldfish and junker... which are both jack of all trades ships by design), and would give most ships maps/areas where they can excel.

I totally agree.  Still think that the mob should have vertical engines to which can be disabled but everything you've got here is a great idea.

Offline Mean Machine

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Re: How would YOU nerf the Mobula?
« Reply #61 on: March 18, 2016, 02:20:10 pm »

I don't wanna keep repeating the same things but I want to make sure people aren't mislead. All ships provide many different builds, crew combos, and strategies. All ships have unique designs and strengths and weaknesses. The mob's unique design of having an underbelly balloon is strictly an advantage - same with its thin profile and spread out components. This doesn't mean it's well balanced. Take the junker for example which performs a similar role that's worse in practically every way except more armor. This doesn't necessarily mean the junker isn't balanced compared to the other ships, it just means the mob is better

With that logic we can say that pyra having balloon protected by armor is strictly advantage (which it is and I don't mind it). Also we could say that junker and galleon having guns on both side is strictly advantage, since if they get one side disabled, they can turn and shoot again with other guns. They are also a lot more resiliant to getting flanked like I already mentioned in one of my posts. Or that galleon can carry FOUR heavy guns! Yes, that's all advantage, but you make it sound like it's a bad thing. That's exactly what I like about ships, they have different qualities about them. But everyone picks on stuff that mobula does better than other ships in order to prove their points, but they forget about what other ships do better than mobula (chasing enemy, being faster to engage and disengage, easier to repair, easier to keep chem spray up, easier to keep buffs up, easier to tank, easier to get to the components, easier to maneuver around terrain, easier to track target, easier to catch up with ally or follow, strong rams, more resistant to rams, easier to hide, having privilige of heavy guns etc.. Talking about heavy guns, I think they are big deal. Seriously, mobula doesn't have an access to OP lion gun or lumberjack, which is arguably also OP, but of course who would say that at this time? Maybe next year when they nerf all the ships and people might start using lumberjack more and learn how to shoot it and then we will ses topics on forum "OMG lj OP!" It's not a problem now of course, because you rarely see lumberjack, let alone with a gunner who can handle it, just like metamobula was not a big deal a while ago, but it is now, when more people fly it. The difference is, I actually believe that lumberjack is closer to being OP than mobula.

I'm a bit confused about what you're saying about balloon, you have to explain that a bit more. In your post above you said that mobulas's balloon is underneath so it's resistant to being popped. I'm not sure what you mean by this. Carronade can hit balloon even if you're a bit above mobula, especially with stamina. Lumberjack definetly shouldn't have a problem and the rest of the guns that are decent also have great arcs like banshee, flamers and hades.

The fact that the mob is good against everything doesn't mean it's balanced and that's not how games work. The test is to put the other ships excluding mob up against eachother and see if they're balanced. The truth is that they're relatively balanced to eachother with the possible exception of pyra, but today I flew a mortar-gat pyra against a vet kill squid to prove a point and barely scratched the hull under my buffed armor. No ship is "only useful with one build or one situation", but the mob is good in all. There's no other ship where you can simply swap out loadouts and fight anything without worry. Mobula is the least risky ship to bring (which is ok but it's OP!!)

I have a hard time believing that people think mobula is best against all ships and possibly that it's the only ship in game that is good against all ships. Let's take an example here and say we're flying mobula without artemises, just for the sake of argument, since it looks like you and some other people believe that mobula itself is OP and it's not due to that particular build like OP mentioned, hades+double arty. How many ships in the game wouldn't handle mobula without artmemises? So, let's see then how OP mobula would handle other ships if we take artemises away from it.

- Squid would obviously stand a very good chance, it can even handle meta mob.
- Goldfish if it's fighting close range has a very solid chance to handle mobula, without artemises even a lot more so.
Hwacha in short range is still very good against mobula, no one will tell me otherwise, sorry. If I can hit and disable at least two guns on mobula with hwacha and I'm seriously bad gunner, no exaggerating, then I just won't be convinced otherwise, sorry, anyone can try to convince me, but good luck :P And even two disable guns on mobula is good enough to put them in position where they they need to dodge and likely use pilot tools and damage their balloon and engines, while goldfish can press on and continue attack.
Carronade fish can still do good job at blending mobula, it's just not as easy mode as it was, it requires a tiny bit more of thinking ahead.
 - Junker should not have much of a problem, metajunker should actually have quite an easy time if fighting at range because mobula will have hard time hitting that slim hull without artemises. Merc on mobula could help, but I can't see that being nearly enough. In close range junker has a very good chance against mobula, we've seen enough of that I believe.
- Galleon should annihilate mobula at long range. Galleon is even strong against metamobula at long ranges and I described why I think so in one of my previous posts.
- Spire I believe, would have pretty good chance against no arty mob at both ranges. Lumberjack spire with hades, flak or arty support or the spire you see everywhere now - hwacha+double gat+banshe would be very strong in close engagement, like it is against all ships.
- We obviously won't talk about pyra, but ofc pyra would also stand a chance, but not at long range.

Of course I'm not saying mobula would suck in these situations, I'm saying that both, mobula and any enemy ship would have good chances of taking out each other. In case if anyone would agree to that, then that would mean arty is OP, not mobula itself. And arty can't be OP just on mobula, but not on the other ships. If it's OP, it's OP on everything. I personally still don't really care about metamobula and don't think it's OP, but I wouldn't oppose to artemis nerf in order to nerf metamobula or just because of gun itself.

Again, how would you propose that muse buff the other ships and keep balance? Saying that the mobula is balanced and all the other ships aren't isn't how balance works. Mob has an advantageous design with an underside balloon and thin spread out profile, great stats with excellent maneuvering and good armor/hull, and nearly the best possible light gun setup. This puts it steps above the other ships and is why it's not balanced. It's fine to have a good easy jack of all trades ship and that's why I only want to touch the hull value!

I can't imagine how you'd buff the other ships to balance the mob so you need to explain it. I'm a numbers guy with over 2700 hours so I'll understand it if you can describe it

Heh, well I'm the opposite of numbers guy and I'm not very good at coming up with balancing changes, it's not my job to balance game after all. I just don't like to see nerfs, unless it's seriously obvious that something is OP, which I can't see for mobula. But in general I don't like nerfs. Probably because I've seen plenty games that were ruined because of it and stopped being fun. And often developers tend to go too far and actually totally break whatever they are nerfing.
But, Jamini above seem to have pretty good idea of what could be done. I especially like spire turnings buff, I'm not sure about buffing armor though. I also agree on galleon top speed buff and I also very much like squid idea. I would just like to add that junker needs better vertical acceleration, which you already said yourself and I support the idea.. So, these could be good start. Sorry, can't give you better examples, like I said, I'm not much into balancing.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2016, 02:49:16 pm by Mean Machine »

Offline Sammy B. T.

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Re: How would YOU nerf the Mobula?
« Reply #62 on: March 18, 2016, 03:24:31 pm »
But everyone picks on stuff that mobula does better than other ships in order to prove their points, but they forget about what other ships do better than mobula (chasing enemy,

Mobs are easily one of the best pursuit ships. If you're chasing someone, what is better. Being fast or having 5 guns?

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being faster to engage and disengage,

The Mobula is a front facer. Like all ships with primarily front guns it is fast to engage and disengage as it can go directly forward or back to keep shooting.

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easier to repair

Kinda but it has high enough armor and hull combined with a very difficult hit box that it doesn't take too much.

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easier to keep chem spray up,

Yes because flamers are such the rage.

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easier to keep buffs up,

Not terribly hard. Never had an issue with double buff on the mobula. Maybe the engines will get ignored a bit.

 
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easier to tank

While there is a bit of a delay between order to tank and start of tanking its hardly worse then most ships save maybe the junker.

 
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easier to get to the components,


Spread out components are a huge plus, not a minus. Junker probably has the most accessible components but I hardly ever thanked the Muse gods for their accesibility after a hwatcha or artemis barage.

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easier to maneuver around terrain,

Unless you know you can go up.

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easier to track target,

Again this is where front engages excel over side engages and I'd say a mobula has an easier time tracking targets.

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easier to catch up with ally or follow,


Perhaps but again, guns are better than speed and voice chat is even better.

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strong rams, more resistant to rams,

Because rams are such a huge part of the meta

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easier to hide,

Unless again this is an airship game and going up over cover is an option

 
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having privilige of heavy guns etc.. Talking about heavy guns, I think they are big deal. Seriously, mobula doesn't have an access to OP lion gun or lumberjack, which is arguably also OP, but of course who would say that at this time?


Nah light guns are generally better than heavy guns alone as heavy guns almost entirely need another gun to support their role.

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Maybe next year when they nerf all the ships and people might start using lumberjack more and learn how to shoot it and then we will ses topics on forum "OMG lj OP!" It's not a problem now of course, because you rarely see lumberjack, let alone with a gunner who can handle it, just like metamobula was not a big deal a while ago, but it is now, when more people fly it. The difference is, I actually believe that lumberjack is closer to being OP than mobula.

Maybe I am just old but there have been plenty of complaints about the Lumberjack but there are plenty of counters...like a mobula.


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I'm a bit confused about what you're saying about balloon, you have to explain that a bit more. In your post above you said that mobulas's balloon is underneath so it's resistant to being popped. I'm not sure what you mean by this. Carronade has better down arcs than up arcs so even if you're a bit above mobula you can still hit balloon, especially with stamina. Lumberjack definetly shouldn't have a problem and the rest of the guns that are decent also have great arcs like banshee, flamers and hades.

Did something change. Carronades are like the opposite of dogs, they can't look down like at all. However the advantage of the lower balloon being is defensive. When faced with a blender on almost every ship you're dealt with the issue of not being able to shoot the enemy even if you're guns are faced the right way. Thats because on every ship the balloon is this huge thing several meters above your ships and most relevant guns  for dealing with a blender can't shoot up well. The Mobula's balloon reverses this and while true its not a great turner, if it can face the right way it can respond fire on the mobula, a wholly unique trait that flies in the face that on paper blenders should be great against mobulas.

Also the lower balloon makes it much stronger against those overpower lumberjacks especially if the mobula happens to have mercury or artemis (but what are the odds of that happening?)


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I have a hard time believing that people think mobula is best against all ships and possibly that it's the only ship in game that is good against all ships. Let's take an example here and say we're flying mobula without artemises, just for the sake of argument, since it looks like you and some other people believe that mobula itself is OP and it's not due to that particular build like OP mentioned, hades+double arty. How many ships in the game wouldn't handle mobula without artmemises? So, let's see then how OP mobula would handle other ships if we take artemises away from it.

But why? Guns aren't created equal in regards to ship usage and placement. The heavy flak is one of the greatest weapons in the game but you sure as hell wouldn't put it on a goldfish. Even the artemis is a poor gun for the front of a squid. Trying to blame the prominence of the mobula on the artemis is ignoring a lot of factors


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Heh, well I'm the opposite of numbers guy and I'm not very good at coming up with balancing changes, it's not my job to balance game after all. I just don't like to see nerfs, unless it's seriously obvious that something is OP, which I can't see for mobula. But in general I don't like nerfs. Probably because I've seen plenty games that were ruined because of it and stopped being fun. And often developers tend to go too far and actually totally break whatever they are nerfing.

Long time members of this game have seen nothing but nerfs for balancing of this game and yet there is still a huge call for nerfing the mobula.

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But, Jamini above seem to have pretty good idea of what could be done. I especially like spire turnings buff, I'm not sure about buffing armor though. I also agree on galleon top speed buff and I also very much like squid idea. I would just like to add that junker needs better vertical acceleration, which you already said yourself and I support the idea.. So, these could be good start. Sorry, can't give you better examples, like I said, I'm not much into balancing.

Yet what you are proposing is far more balancing. Changing every ship to match the mobula is hard enough and then you'd have issues of other ships against the others.

Offline Mean Machine

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Re: How would YOU nerf the Mobula?
« Reply #63 on: March 18, 2016, 03:37:59 pm »
...................

I couldn't possibly imagine you could put so much BS in a single post. I stopped reading after about fifth quote, since you clearly are not even trying to make reasonable arguments. You pretty much replied for the sake of replying and it seems that it's very important to you that you prove me wrong.  Better luck next time.

Offline MightyKeb

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Re: How would YOU nerf the Mobula?
« Reply #64 on: March 18, 2016, 03:47:23 pm »
...................

I couldn't possibly imagine you could put so much BS in a single post. I stopped reading after about fifth quote, since you clearly are not even trying to make reasonable arguments. You pretty much replied for the sake of replying and it seems that it's very important to you that you prove me wrong.  Better luck next time.

How are you going to prove him wrong when you don't even respect him enough to read the whole post? By definition, you're not making a reasonable argument while calling him out on not doing the same.

Offline Mean Machine

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Re: How would YOU nerf the Mobula?
« Reply #65 on: March 18, 2016, 04:29:46 pm »
...................

I couldn't possibly imagine you could put so much BS in a single post. I stopped reading after about fifth quote, since you clearly are not even trying to make reasonable arguments. You pretty much replied for the sake of replying and it seems that it's very important to you that you prove me wrong.  Better luck next time.

How are you going to prove him wrong when you don't even respect him enough to read the whole post? By definition, you're not making a reasonable argument while calling him out on not doing the same.

I have no intention of proving him wrong, because I don't care what he thinks of my opinion and I don't feel the need to prove him wrong. I care what others think, because they show genuine interest on this topic and they bring up some interesting points. I had a nice discussion with them, but I honestly didn't agree with them with certain points, so I replied and shared my opinions. I was being 100% honest with my opinions. Sammy however don't seem to wish to provide any serious points to the discussion.

Offline nhbearit

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Re: How would YOU nerf the Mobula?
« Reply #66 on: March 18, 2016, 05:13:18 pm »
I have no intention of proving him wrong, because I don't care...

What a glorious example of why the Mob is fine as it is.

Meanie-Butt, if you don't read someone's post simply because you don't agree with their position, then why the hell should anyone read any of yours?

Addendum: I'm aware Meanie-Butt doesn't speak for everyone who shares a position similar to his.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2016, 05:15:13 pm by nhbearit »

Offline Richard LeMoon

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Re: How would YOU nerf the Mobula?
« Reply #67 on: March 18, 2016, 05:46:30 pm »
The defining feature of the Mobula is the five forward facing guns, not the vertical maneuverability. That is a lesser feature. When guns fire more slowly with reduced range and more limited arcs every patch, vertical movement becomes overpowered. This image shows how it has become harder to keep a vertical target in range.



The reason the Mobula has 'become' overpowered is because guns have a lot harder time shooting it. The Mobula vertical is the only thing that has not changed in the equation. Ships have gotten slower, meaning it is easier to keep them in horizontal arc (buff to Mobula). If they are far away, you simply have to turn a bit to keep a fast moving ship in arc. A small amount of angular movement translates to a very large horizontal movement at anything but close distance. There is no limit to how far you can turn. Vertical is different, as you have no vertical angular movement other than the gun. It is a very limited in how far it can turn. The only way to keep a fast target in arc is to move your own ship.

The solutions are as follows:

Give guns their range, arcs, and velocity back (and fix the angular momentum issue)

or

Increase all ships' vertical speed.

or

Reduce Mobula vertical speed.


Offline Mean Machine

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Re: How would YOU nerf the Mobula?
« Reply #68 on: March 18, 2016, 06:31:26 pm »
I have no intention of proving him wrong, because I don't care...

What a glorious example of why the Mob is fine as it is.

Meanie-Butt, if you don't read someone's post simply because you don't agree with their position, then why the hell should anyone read any of yours?

Addendum: I'm aware Meanie-Butt doesn't speak for everyone who shares a position similar to his.

Haha, did you miss all my posts in this thread? I continued discussion with those that wished, Sammy is only exception, because I don't believe he was being serious here.

Also, what position?

I have read your post now, Sammy and maybe it wasn't all shit. I guess you did put a little bit of effort, so I will reply to you and I apologize for being an asshole and overreacting, even though I still don't believe you genuinely tried to make a serious conversation and here is why:

Example of one of the things you said: "because flamers are such rage" - I'm not sure what exactly you meant by this, it was definetly sarcasm but I'm not sure if you meant to say "because flamers are such a problem?" or soemthign like that or maybe it was a typo and you meant to say "because flamers have such a range"? In any case, I simply can't take you seriously here. I don't believe you think chem sprays are useless and I bet you wouldn't play competitive matches without chem sprays or extinguishers if you saw enemy taking fire based weapons. Would you? If you would not, that means that your reply was simply not honest or serious and thus I got an impression that you are probably not interested in making valid points and seriously discuss topic, but instead you replied to me just for the sake of replying and trying to "prove me wrong". Again, that's the impression I got. this was just one example about your... well silly reply, there were more. But I think you get the point. I hope.

However some of the things you said actually sound valid enough, so I'll reply.


Mobs are easily one of the best pursuit ships. If you're chasing someone, what is better. Being fast or having 5 guns?
Yes, mobula has front guns, but in one of my previous posts I mentioned that some of the ships like goldfish, squid, pyra , spire, even junker sometimes can escape with manuevering around terrain, they can easily do that while mobula can't always. Imagine paritan rumble and mobula chasing squid. Yes, you can go over building, but come on, you can't or don't always want to do that. There are a lot of situations that you won't do that, for example: you don't have enough of balloon, ally of enemy ship you're chasing is above and is waiting you with hwacha or whatever, enemy ship that you're chasing is flying low on purpose,s o you going over the building will be extremely time consuming and you will lose target or just wouldn't be able to catch up. That's why I also thought that another one of your responses was silly - the one where you said "Unless you know you can go up." and then again "Unless again this is an airship game and going up over cover is an option." I will assume that your strategy doesn't involve going up and fly through everything in every situation, am I correct?

The Mobula is a front facer. Like all ships with primarily front guns it is fast to engage and disengage as it can go directly forward or back to keep shooting.
I was thinking in situations like when your ally dies and you can just boost right through enemy to get behind them and keep going and by the time they turn you can get nice distance and escape. Mobula can rarely do that succesfully. No way near as easy as goldfish or squid for example. Yes, I know you are gonna say, "but mob has front guns". Before mobula turn around and start shooting, squid can be behind hard cover easily. And if you don't have artemises, you won't even disable them even if you do turn in time.

Kinda but it has high enough armor and hull combined with a very difficult hit box that it doesn't take too much.

Doesn't matter, the fact is that mobula has one of the harder layouts for engineers and that's all I tried to say.


Not terribly hard. Never had an issue with double buff on the mobula. Maybe the engines will get ignored a bit.
Yes, of course, if you take two buffers then of course it's not that hard, but you won't take two buffers. I was trying to point out that if you take one buffer, which is pretty common, then it's harder to keep components buffed in comparison to pyramidion for example. One buffer can easily keep most of pyra buffed. One buffer on mobula will seriously hurt mobulas effectivness if he would try to buff as much components as he would on pyra.

While there is a bit of a delay between order to tank and start of tanking its hardly worse then most ships save maybe the junker.
How many times you see mobula tanking? Almost never, because it's not worth it, because it's either main engi brings armor up in time or you die. In other ships like squid or pyra or fish or spire and even galleon and junker you can easily get at least two guys on armor in a matter of 2 seconds. For mobula it's just not worth it. You either keep firing and try to kill them before they kill you or you try to dodge if you can.

Spread out components are a huge plus, not a minus. Junker probably has the most accessible components but I hardly ever thanked the Muse gods for their accesibility after a hwatcha or artemis barage.

I'm talking from engineering perspective adn survavibility. Engineers will spend more time to repair components because it takes more time to reach them.

Again this is where front engages excel over side engages and I'd say a mobula has an easier time tracking targets.
By tracking I meant what I already said above, it's hard to track and chase your target with mobula through lots of terrain (parritan, duel, canyons....) Also, due to terrible turnings it's hard to track and keep fast ships in arcs.

Perhaps but again, guns are better than speed and voice chat is even better.

By catching up with ally I meant if you seperate due to scouting, flanking, setting ambush etc... If ally gets in trouble you might have a bit harder time getting there in time than some other ships would have in certain maps.

Because rams are such a huge part of the meta
Really?


Nah light guns are generally better than heavy guns alone as heavy guns almost entirely need another gun to support their role.
Purely subjective. How many light guns are there that don't need support of another gun? Lumberjack alone can lock down any ship and eventually kill it if you let them shoot it. If mobula loses ballon in long range engagement in open and there is no ally to support, mobula won't recover if that lumberjack gunner knows what's up. Once artemises are out of arcs....


Did something change. Carronades are like the opposite of dogs, they can't look down like at all. However the advantage of the lower balloon being is defensive. When faced with a blender on almost every ship you're dealt with the issue of not being able to shoot the enemy even if you're guns are faced the right way. Thats because on every ship the balloon is this huge thing several meters above your ships and most relevant guns  for dealing with a blender can't shoot up well. The Mobula's balloon reverses this and while true its not a great turner, if it can face the right way it can respond fire on the mobula, a wholly unique trait that flies in the face that on paper blenders should be great against mobulas.

I had a brainfart there and messed up arcs for carronade, but I corrected myself long before your post came up :) Doesn't make a difference anyway, like I said, you can still blend mobula even if you're little above it.

But why? Guns aren't created equal in regards to ship usage and placement. The heavy flak is one of the greatest weapons in the game but you sure as hell wouldn't put it on a goldfish. Even the artemis is a poor gun for the front of a squid. Trying to blame the prominence of the mobula on the artemis is ignoring a lot of factors

You can't just look at the numbers and say "flak is the greatest weapon". No weapon is most powerful in all situations.
I compared mobula with artemises (who by many is considered OP) to a mobula without artmeises to show how much it would make a difference and that people could maybe figure it out if they actually think mobula is OP due to arties or it's just ship itself that is OP.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2016, 06:38:04 pm by Mean Machine »

Offline Richard LeMoon

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Re: How would YOU nerf the Mobula?
« Reply #69 on: March 18, 2016, 07:33:08 pm »
You guys are starting to post quotewalls of text so high even a Mobula can't buffhydro over them.

Stop it.

Offline Omniraptor

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Re: How would YOU nerf the Mobula?
« Reply #70 on: March 19, 2016, 02:24:11 am »
I agree with richard. That said I will talk about some points mean mentioned- The difference between rebuilding two components close together, and rebuilding one component far apart from others is freaking huge. You can just sprint over with stamina and get to rebuilding (which incidentally gives stamina back so you can sprint away). Rebuilding takes up the vast majority of the time. A junker can be completely crippled by hwacha or artemis spam from the front but a mobula just sort of shrugs and keeps going.

Blending a mobula is more difficult than other ships because the mobula's balloon is lower than its guns. That means that unlike nearly other ship, you can't just hover above its gun arcs and keep shooting their balloon. You have to take fire from the mobula's own guns.

Offline Squidslinger Gilder

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Re: How would YOU nerf the Mobula?
« Reply #71 on: March 19, 2016, 03:06:00 am »
Why even nerf the Mob? Just buff the other ships again. Man this is stupid. Same qq nerf talk, not even going to read it all. Smartest post was right off the bat, this was a result of the Pyra nerf. Which is what the story always is. Nerf one thing, another takes it's place. This is why Muse has never been able to balance the game properly because the first reaction is always to nerf. If they really wanted to shake up the meta and get anywhere close to balancing, they'd stop endlessly nerfing and just put each ship and gun like it was in it's top form. Then adjust. It'll take time but it'll be worth it. The current one at a time nerf machine is the reason threads like this exist.

Offline DJ Logicalia

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Re: How would YOU nerf the Mobula?
« Reply #72 on: March 19, 2016, 10:27:46 am »
The mob was good even before the pyra nerf. People just started gravitating to the Mob after the go-to ship to win with was nerfed

Offline Newbluud

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Re: How would YOU nerf the Mobula?
« Reply #73 on: March 20, 2016, 04:40:25 pm »
Man this is stupid. Same qq nerf talk, not even going to read it all.

You should probably read OP properly. Title is to keep conversation centered, but my belief is to buff other things rather than hit the Mob in its stats.