Author Topic: Defining Roles for Each Ship - A Return to Our Roots  (Read 7424 times)

Offline Arturo Sanchez

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Re: Defining Roles for Each Ship - A Return to Our Roots
« Reply #30 on: October 30, 2016, 03:44:41 pm »
Bring #BalanceToTheForce
Put Atruejedi in Charge of Game Balance for One Week

Dear god no. As one of the "vets" who's most likely to lose against a novice while having a vet crew. I...no... just no...

Offline Solidusbucket

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Re: Defining Roles for Each Ship - A Return to Our Roots
« Reply #31 on: October 30, 2016, 07:49:09 pm »
double left side merc top artemis mob bro. get with the meta.

Offline Richard LeMoon

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Re: Defining Roles for Each Ship - A Return to Our Roots
« Reply #32 on: October 30, 2016, 08:13:10 pm »
I lose against novices all the time with vet crews. Mostly because we are just screwing around and taking oddball builds simply out of boredom, while encouraging the novices to take meta. Jedi does the same thing. Chaos is the manifestation of that desire to do something, anything different.

I also used to run a double Merc Art Mobula on occasion, and likely will again once the changes are in. In fact, many vets continuous told me they don't even cross arcs until they tried it themselves before the arc nerf. It never did well, but it was fun trying to make it work.

Those caught up in the meta have a hard time thinking out of the box. While I am not sure Jedi would be the best choice for a 'balance week', he would do far better than most people grinding the meta.

Offline Solidusbucket

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Re: Defining Roles for Each Ship - A Return to Our Roots
« Reply #33 on: October 31, 2016, 12:42:07 am »
Real pros put triple artemis with merc on top. captain shoots merc. What I liked to do before the arc fuck up was put an artemis on top and have gunner use a merc or hades on the side with double artemis down low so I could shoot an artemis.

Offline Arturo Sanchez

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Re: Defining Roles for Each Ship - A Return to Our Roots
« Reply #34 on: October 31, 2016, 11:47:56 am »
I lose against novices all the time with vet crews. Mostly because we are just screwing around and taking oddball builds simply out of boredom, while encouraging the novices to take meta. Jedi does the same thing. Chaos is the manifestation of that desire to do something, anything different.

I also used to run a double Merc Art Mobula on occasion, and likely will again once the changes are in. In fact, many vets continuous told me they don't even cross arcs until they tried it themselves before the arc nerf. It never did well, but it was fun trying to make it work.

Those caught up in the meta have a hard time thinking out of the box. While I am not sure Jedi would be the best choice for a 'balance week', he would do far better than most people grinding the meta.

and yet this is all about basics and roots where the meta lies in the middle of it all.

A bit inappropriate to be led by an oddball who intentionally deviates from the meta to such a point that he'd grow entirely out of touch of it.

You got your wires crossed backwards moon. Even the most meta-pleb is closer to the roots than jedi, who's entire contrary philosophy is the antithesis of going back to basics.

I'd even say Binary would be better, despite his blatant cowardice for a fair fight. (though saying that makes the bile in me rise)
« Last Edit: October 31, 2016, 11:50:13 am by Arturo Sanchez »

Offline Richard LeMoon

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Re: Defining Roles for Each Ship - A Return to Our Roots
« Reply #35 on: October 31, 2016, 05:01:09 pm »
Oh, its you. I would have been ignoring you completely if I knew you changed your name yet again.  As always, everything you say is wrong. I won't bother explaining why this time.

Real pros put triple artemis with merc on top. captain shoots merc. What I liked to do before the arc fuck up was put an artemis on top and have gunner use a merc or hades on the side with double artemis down low so I could shoot an artemis.

I have done that one once in a while as well, with a flak or two in the mix. It should work again with the new changes.

Offline Arturo Sanchez

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Re: Defining Roles for Each Ship - A Return to Our Roots
« Reply #36 on: October 31, 2016, 07:21:20 pm »
Oh, its you. I would have been ignoring you completely if I knew you changed your name yet again.  As always, everything you say is wrong. I won't bother explaining why this time.

Real pros put triple artemis with merc on top. captain shoots merc. What I liked to do before the arc fuck up was put an artemis on top and have gunner use a merc or hades on the side with double artemis down low so I could shoot an artemis.

I have done that one once in a while as well, with a flak or two in the mix. It should work again with the new changes.

Not my fault you're not informed to know anything.

Offline RearAdmiralZill

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Re: Defining Roles for Each Ship - A Return to Our Roots
« Reply #37 on: October 31, 2016, 09:31:30 pm »
@Zill

From someone who's played, flied with and against the current heavy flak in a high level environment, I can tell you that it's far better at what it does at the moment. The changes brought it tons more consistency, though I'd prefer the old version to have some additional presence for the sake of existing.

I definitely admit that it's more useful now then it has ever been since it did get it's massive ban hammer long ago. My biggest point is that back then, it could do all that mattered. Broke armor alright, killed way too fast. Even with Richard's Howitzer, I feel the same way. Impact for armor, explosive for hull, and force to just make it annoyingly OP.

This all being said, let's not go too off topic here. Jedi gave a lot of ideas that need feedback, not just Flak, or Mobula builds.

Offline Daft Loon

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Re: Defining Roles for Each Ship - A Return to Our Roots
« Reply #38 on: October 31, 2016, 11:21:57 pm »
#NerfGreased,#NerfBurst,#ChangeCharged

These three ammo types all have the same problem, their main purpose is to increase dps but rather than having any meaningful theme to how they do so it just comes down to plugging them into a spreadsheet to see which will always be best for which gun, or for most players just being told which is better.

What I want to see instead is the dps effects removed from Burst rounds and Greased and Charged changed to be universal dps ammo types with situational strengths and weaknesses requiring a decision on which to bring or when to use it.

How this can work:

1- Remove clip size modifications, they screw things up by rounding differently or having no effect at all on different guns. Look at the mine launcher for proof - no clip size effects and it has 5 fully useful ammo types + heatsink not ruining it if you really want to avoid fires.

2- Add a new effect that increases or reduces the time taken to reload the next clip, Greased oils up the gun making it reload faster while charged and maybe burst have excess propellant and complicated shell casings/magazines that take longer to clear out of the gun.

Possible stats

Burst
+50% AOE
+1m AOE (applied after the % change or set at 0.666 to get the same effect)
Now has a small effect on all guns and a more worthwhile effect on small AOE weapons like Banshee, Hades etc without getting too silly when used on Lumberjack or Mines.
No longer competes as a dps ammo so Hwacha and Artemis gunners have to choose between saturation/ease of hitting and raw damage output.

Greased
-20% damage
-20% projectile speed
-15% shell life (further reduces range without changing arming time)
+50% rate of fire
+50% reload speed
Increases dps overall by providing a consistently high rate of fire.

Charged
+35% damage
-20% rate of fire
-40% reload speed
Deals a lot of damage in one clip and then leaves you with a gun taking almost twice as long to reload, timing is critical.


The exact numbers might need changing based on how the math works out for each gun. The Artemis, Hwacha and Mercury (and maybe others) would need small tweaks due to no longer being balanced based on dependency to a single ammo type.

Each gun then has minimum 4 ammo choices to consider, 2 genuinely different dps options, Lesmok/Heavy for range and at least 1 novelty option (Burst,Incendiary,Loch or Heatsink).

Offline Richard LeMoon

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Re: Defining Roles for Each Ship - A Return to Our Roots
« Reply #39 on: November 02, 2016, 12:05:03 am »

#NerfGreased - Decrease Greased ammo range from 80% of Normal ammo's reach to 70%.

I have been saying the same for a while, along with increasing the recoil a bit. This would put the Gat's max range at 315m, with a max spread of 20m or so (from 18). Normal or charged would be the choice ammo for head on attacks, with greased being better for flanks and surprise attacks. Barking Dog would suffer some.


As for reload speed changes, that would have to be explored further. I think we tested that a while back for a few ammo types. Sequential ammo effects could be interesting, though.


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#NerfBurst - Burst ammo already provides a large bonus to the "splash" of weapons with Area of Effect damage; the increased clip size makes this ammo a "why use anything else?" choice  in weapons like the Hwacha and Artemis.

The first nerf I would give Burst would be an increase in recoil, with maybe a reduction in ammo, but only if the rate of fire was brought to normal.

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#RestoreLoch - Lochnager/Heavy Flak

Agreed. Spray and pray is boring.

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#ChangeCharged - Think of Charged as the Loch for lighter weapons or those with larger clips. Less special, less skillful, but still fun and unique.

I wish someone, anyone would have thought of that and nagged Muse about it for the weeks of new Loch testing. If only someone would have mentioned it like 100 times. Or maybe at least 20 someones. Perhaps a few emails...





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#HowAboutAHowitzer -I've asked them to add a "new" gun to the game: the old Heavy Flak. Give it the same exact stats of as the Old Heavy Flak, but, to save artistic resources, simply retexture it with modified textures that are tinted an obviously different color from the "real" Heavy Flak. Call it a Howitzer or something and be done with it.

Yes on everything but calling it a howitzer. I reserve that for the Atlas Howitzer.

My not so easy changes are #PerShipImpact and #Falloff. These two things would solve so many balance issues.



Oh, and:

#TrainTheAI: This is the one thing that is killing the game more than anything else. Make the AI actually good at the game. Better than most players, even.

Offline Unarmed Civilian

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Re: Defining Roles for Each Ship - A Return to Our Roots
« Reply #40 on: November 04, 2016, 12:06:04 am »
I ended up coming up with an idea for a change to charged in the incendiary thread, but it's very vague so I'll refine it here.

Make Charged Rounds the ammo type that trades damage per second (DPS) for damage per clip (DPC).

+30% damage
-30% rate of fire (from -25%)
No clip size penalty (from -20%)

This makes Charged Rounds the dedicated damage per clip ammo at the severe cost of damage per second.

On paper, this takes DPS down to 91% of normal rounds ((1-.30)*(1+.30)), so it's almost a whole 10% DPS loss. However, it is a guaranteed 30% DPC gain on every gun in the game, since there are no funny clip size changes to worry about. It also makes it very clear that there is going to be a LOT more damage per clip, but it is going to fire VERY slowly.

As an example, a normal gatling has 1086.5 DPC, while this charged gatling would have 1412.45 DPC. That is enough to break a galleon's hull in one clip, despite two whole mallets in between, but it'll take nearly 14 seconds of constant, uninterrupted fire to do that.

On guns that use Burst for a 5th shot (+20% DPC on H Flak and Artemis), Burst would still be a middle ground offering a balance between DPC and DPS, but Charged would be king of DPC without question.

This change would also cause a marginal nerf to the Mercury Field Gun and Charged H Carro. However, it is slight enough that a small tweak can be made to the field gun to balance it without making its other munitions drastically more powerful. H Carro is strong enough without it, and can eat another nerf after Loch Carro was buffed so hard.

Personally, I doubt this would make Charged overpowered, as people strongly favor DPS in the current setting for fast kills, but it will make it a more interesting ammunition to experiment with and open up new uses for it. See Hwacha. (vs hull: Burst DPC 948; Charged DPC 1027)

Offline Atruejedi

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Re: Defining Roles for Each Ship - A Return to Our Roots
« Reply #41 on: November 04, 2016, 07:14:46 am »
[nerdy numbers]

I love this idea. And I'd still use it in Mercs, because I'd have another gun with explosive damage waiting for that pretty-much-guaranteed-armor-strip to fire and do real damage. This rewards smart players, and I'm all about it!

Offline Kestril

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Re: Defining Roles for Each Ship - A Return to Our Roots
« Reply #42 on: January 04, 2017, 09:59:31 pm »

#NerfGreased - Decrease Greased ammo range from 80% of Normal ammo's reach to 70%. "Set it and forget it" Greased ammo is extremely common in this game. Many players shove it in all guns and never bother swapping ammunition types for the rest of the game. This is boring and thoughtless. Players should be punished for not switching to Normal ammunition to gain that extra 30% in range. Greased should only be used when players know they're in range for it... they should have to consciously switch from Normal to Greased once they're confident they're in range. This adds depth and rewards thinking players.

Dear god yes. Greased is way too prominent on nearly all guns. Hades: Greased, Flak: Greased, Gatling: greased. The ammo is too prominent and has become catch-all in it's role. Furthermore the gatling gun changes made buffed accuracy to the gatling gun removed heavy ammo from the meaningful choice.  I'd also go so far to say to increase the jitter and spread when greased is loaded to above the old gatling levels, while increasing the fire rate further. Make it the ammo you'd load eye-to-eye with the opponent, and nowhere else.

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#NerfBurst - Burst ammo already provides a large bonus to the "splash" of weapons with Area of Effect damage; the increased clip size makes this ammo a "why use anything else?" choice  in weapons like the Hwacha and Artemis. Like Greased, this "set it and forget it" mentality is boring, thoughtless, and lacks tactical depth and choice. With a nerf to Burst, Greased ammunition would be more common in the Artemis at close range and Heavy Clip would be more attractive as an initial-engagement Hwacha ammo choice. Let's reward smart players.
What nerfs? I'm trying to think of how to nerf burst ammo without crippling the hwacha and artimis. However, the argument could be made that those guns are too prominent as it is.  I think reducing the increased clip size would be a start. 

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#RestoreLoch - Restore Lochnager ammo to its former niche glory. One of the greatest feelings in the game was (was  :-[ ) waiting for the enemy's armor to drop and nuking an enemy with a shot from the (old) Heavy Flak. While changes to the Heavy Flak were wise to make it more accessible and newb-friendly, this feeling of absolute power and awe is gone and that is truly a shame. While I'll address the Old and New Heavy Flak in a moment, think of Loch as that special, skillful ammo for heavy guns or weapons with smaller clips.

Yes please. There were few things more rewarding than pulling off a loched-n'-loaded heavy flak. This was the high-risk heavy gun ammo. It's niche was secure and it was rewarding and required teamwork to use. Why muse changed it is a real head-scratcher for me.


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#ChangeCharged - What's the point of this ammo? Some people occasionally use it in the Heavy Flak, Lumberjack, Mine Launcher, and Heavy Carronade... and that's still not exactly common. The only "yes, use Charged!" gun in the game is the Mercury, and even the Mercury has viable alternatives with Lesmok and Heatsink. Charged needs a complete overhaul. Muse should have left Loch alone and should instead #ChangeCharged ammo to perform and act somewhat like Lochnager currently does. Think of Charged as the Loch for lighter weapons or those with larger clips. Less special, less skillful, but still fun and unique.
Again, I agree. Charge needs a distinct role. Turning charged into the current low-damage loch would provide some more loadout choice and give charged a niche role. Furthermore, combined it with the suggested changes I mentioned above to greased ammo and you've got a real nice tactical choice on your hands.

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#HowAboutAHowitzer - I mentioned I miss the old Heavy Flak, especially when coupled with the old Lochnager ammo. So let's recreate that fabled weapon and call it something new. I've proposed this to Muse many times and they've admitted it would be easy, yet they won't do it because of vanity. I've asked them to add a "new" gun to the game: the old Heavy Flak. Give it the same exact stats of as the Old Heavy Flak, but, to save artistic resources, simply retexture it with modified textures that are tinted an obviously different color from the "real" Heavy Flak. I'm partial to gold or copper or a nice Statue of Liberty green myself. 8) Call it a Howitzer or something and be done with it. Variety is the spice of life, and this would be so easy to implement.

I miss a potential 1hit K-O heavy gun as well. Still, unlike the other changes proposed, I think there is good reason muse made this change. Both to lower the skill floor needed for heavy flak, and to increase killtimes to give crews a chance to react.

Still, a very immobile, 1-shot nearly "fixed" heavy weapon could have a place in game. New heavy guns are sorely needed to skirmish as it is. I'd recommend this be a "heavy mercury" and deal piercing damage. 1 shot with a fairly long reload that does ~475 armor damage with no projectile expansion.


An ammo update for skirmish is sorely needed at this point, as ammo roles overlap and there is very little tactical choice in ammo selection.


I'd like to add that adding ammunition types that reduce the damage overall, but change the secondary or primary damage type would be a way to make the gunner class almost as useful as engineers. (I.E. High explosive rounds change the secondary damage type to explosive, but reduce the main damage type by 75%), but I'll probably write that up in another suggestion post. 
« Last Edit: January 04, 2017, 10:06:28 pm by Kestril »