Author Topic: "When Ambush Comes to Shove" -Week 3 Possibly final testing?!  (Read 54897 times)

Offline Keyvias

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Hey everyone,

We are testing all this weekend and we will be doing a blind and non-blind test.
Balance changes are live in the dev app.
After the test is completed we'll release the notes here!

March 12th
11 am eastern- Blind Data Test
Affected Systems

Mobula
Spire
Squid
Heavy Flak
Harpoon
Pyramidion
Hwacha
Lochnagar Shot

March 12th
1 pm eastern- Change Notes Released

March 13th
12 pm eastern-  Informed Data Test

A big thanks to everyone so far, we've made a lot of changes based on your feedback and we think we've gotten it to a very good place, but we want to put it through you guys to let us know how well we did (or didn't do.)
Show up for testing, give us your feedback and let us know what you think!
« Last Edit: March 11, 2016, 01:19:30 pm by Keyvias »

Offline BlackenedPies

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Re: "When Ambush Comes to Shove" -Week 3 Possibly final testing?!
« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2016, 01:45:56 pm »
Seriously it's time to stop. We've been waiting who knows how long for a balance patch but we're stuck testing the same failed changes for the past 3 weeks. Some people actually play the game and want to see it balanced but right now we're just wasting time. I didn't even bother with email feedback last week because it obviously wasn't gonna happen. Since it's blind testing I don't know everything that's changed but I tested loch and it's WORSE than last week when it was BROKEN. WTF!

I demand a new Hand of Balance or I quit
« Last Edit: March 11, 2016, 02:05:55 pm by BlackenedPies »

Offline MightyKeb

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Re: "When Ambush Comes to Shove" -Week 3 Possibly final testing?!
« Reply #2 on: March 11, 2016, 02:19:49 pm »
I didn't even bother with email feedback last week because it obviously wasn't gonna happen. Since it's blind testing I don't know everything that's changed but I tested loch and

^^ This.

Pretty tired at this point. Changes at the end of last week were far, far worse than everything else you initially came up with. Unnecessary, unbalanced, doesn't fix the problems, ignores obvious solutions, and simply aggravates.


If you want to do something for skirmish, at the very least hire a new Hand of Balance for skirmish because whilst people dislike eric for his idea of balance in general, he is surely not going to go far with it if you're pushing him and the majority of the team to work on an entirely different gamemode.

Offline DrTentacles

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Re: "When Ambush Comes to Shove" -Week 3 Possibly final testing?!
« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2016, 02:42:35 pm »
I'll come and give feedback when after I've seen the notes, and played but overall...eh. Guns needs a larger balance tweak than muse is willing to give. The overall death spiral gameplay is flawed.

The "balance" changes that have happened so far are inane, with a few small exceptions. This game does need *dramatic* balance changes, and I think with Alliance, Muse is beginning to realize it. The fix isn't just changing numbers, though that's a part. I've started to come to the conclusion lately that the overall gameplay is deeply, dramatically flawed. There needs to be more depth that isn't simply based on player knowledge. New players aren't intimidated by crunchy numbers. Lots of games require learning stuff, and have crunchy numbers, if you dig deep enough. What's needed is clear paths toward player improvement, and greater mechanical depth.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2016, 02:46:58 pm by DrTentacles »

Offline Dementio

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Re: "When Ambush Comes to Shove" -Week 3 Possibly final testing?!
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2016, 03:27:56 pm »
In my infinite wisdom, I just wait for the notes. Despite Muse's reasoning behind blind testing, small number changes are really only noticable when there is an actual test environment, not two people sitting in practise mode trying to guess if it is different or not and you only get environment when playing a bit more often with full lobbies, and with multiple ship changes, chances are they will only be flown twice, after the notes came out, if at all.

I do like their effort in involving the community though, but after the third wave of feedback I would want them to finish the patch. With the diversity of voices in the community, we will be stuck with infinite balance testing and we don't have enough motivated players to keep doing this to themselves.

Offline Byron Cavendish

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Re: "When Ambush Comes to Shove" -Week 3 Possibly final testing?!
« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2016, 03:59:58 pm »
Every single word, and post, above mine echoes the very core of all that I believe in and the anguish that is inflicted upon my soul.

Offline Letus

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Re: "When Ambush Comes to Shove" -Week 3 Possibly final testing?!
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2016, 04:21:11 pm »
if they're in play, then being able to even kill a practice ship with all three lesmok shots at point blank range with heavy flak....
why does it even have arming time...

Offline GurasOguras

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Re: "When Ambush Comes to Shove" -Week 3 Possibly final testing?!
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2016, 04:51:50 pm »
Lochnagar shot was never considered to be main ammo for Heavy Flak anyway. That's charged. Now it's gonna be burst and trying adapt lochnagar to new flak will make it only worth shit on other guns that use it (minelauncher, minotaur, heavy carronade) while still burst being most preferred ammo on heavy flak.

Now it's not worth to play as baloon popper, only as deadlocker (hwacha&artemis). This patch is only gonna make meta even more meta while nerfing niche choices.

Offline Lyoko Barbossa

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Re: "When Ambush Comes to Shove" -Week 3 Possibly final testing?!
« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2016, 10:10:54 pm »
Lochnagar shot was never considered to be main ammo for Heavy Flak anyway. That's charged. Now it's gonna be burst and trying adapt lochnagar to new flak will make it only worth shit on other guns that use it (minelauncher, minotaur, heavy carronade) while still burst being most preferred ammo on heavy flak.

Now it's not worth to play as baloon popper, only as deadlocker (hwacha&artemis). This patch is only gonna make meta even more meta while nerfing niche choices.

Did you really expect anything less from Muse?

Offline Solidusbucket

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Re: "When Ambush Comes to Shove" -Week 3 Possibly final testing?!
« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2016, 11:36:19 pm »
Sooooo. Everyone in this game (including me) bitches when the "wrong" ammo is used. There is a clear meta ammo for each gun.

Am i the only one that wants fo say "fuck it" and have each gun only shoot normal rounds, buff the normal rounds of each gun to its meta state and  give ammo types that simply reduce or extend arming time/range.

Everyone keeps bitching (me too) about stupid ammos and balances. You know what exists IRL (to an extent)? Propellents. Make the bullet go further or shorter before arming (lesmok/greased without rate of fire change/damage reduction) .





« Last Edit: March 11, 2016, 11:39:14 pm by Solidusbucket »

Offline DrTentacles

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Re: "When Ambush Comes to Shove" -Week 3 Possibly final testing?!
« Reply #10 on: March 11, 2016, 11:40:48 pm »
Yeah. Ammo types need an overhaul.

Offline Solidusbucket

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Re: "When Ambush Comes to Shove" -Week 3 Possibly final testing?!
« Reply #11 on: March 11, 2016, 11:44:46 pm »
Yeah. Ammo types need an overhaul.

They need to go away. It is a constant struggle to explain to newer players why ONE ammo type works well with a specific gun. What the shit is the point if only ONE ammo type work for each gun effectivley.

Don't give me this shit of heavy clip/greased/incendiary/charged work well with light cannonade (or any other gun). They are all equally shitty and all equally dependant on the situation.

No. Normal rounds work fine. On every single gun normal rounds work fine except for (A. Lesmok to get easier arcs and (B. greased/incendiary/lochnagar to get closer arming time / rate of fire increase (greased)

Oh, and don't give me that smack about Burst. Thats an easy number to adjust to every gun (Artemis / Hwatcha) to make it have the same AOE/ammo count with regular rounds.

Then again, maybe I'm just unique in this mindest.

See, I came to this game after playing a stupid amount of a combat flight simulator. The ammo types were extremely limited. This is because they're based off actual munitions. It did not stop the game from being fun (despite the disadvantage I faced because of my choice of aircraft and as such munition options). I should end my rant now....

I'm still angry about this.

When I started playing this game I thought of all the possiblities of ammo types. Imagine burst gatling being able to hit component / hull at same time (nope)

What about lesmok banshee tearing the enemy up better than the Artemis on Dunes (nope)

How about the mercury ripping enemies apart with a constant barrage of greased ammo (nope)

hades doing massive damage at closer ranged with charged (nope)

what is the point of having multiple ammos?
« Last Edit: March 12, 2016, 12:02:43 am by Solidusbucket »

Offline Daft Loon

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Re: "When Ambush Comes to Shove" -Week 3 Possibly final testing?!
« Reply #12 on: March 12, 2016, 12:15:49 am »
I wouldn't mind seeing the arbitrary changes in damage go (burst , greased and charged are all extra damage rounds for the most part but with their effectiveness on each gun being determined by the math of clip size, damage and rate of fire rather than any real theme).

I would rather see ammo with each having:

-1 novel effect that is meaningful on most guns (fire, increased effective range etc)
-1 drawback that is meaningful on all guns


And this is from someone who has spent far too long calculating and discussing the minuscule difference between charged, burst and greased rounds on the light flak, and enjoyed it.


Edit

I think clip size and rate of fire changes are possibly responsible for the main problems. Look at the minelauncher - it has the widest variety of meaningful ammo choices and all of them have their logical effect, probably not a coincidence that the minelauncher is unaffected by those two things and works so well with the ammo choices.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2016, 12:25:48 am by Daft Loon »

Offline Mod Josie

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Re: "When Ambush Comes to Shove" -Week 3 Possibly final testing?!
« Reply #13 on: March 12, 2016, 01:48:40 pm »
Hi everyone!
Here are the balance changes as sent to me by the nice people on high.

Balance Changes
Mobula bottom guns fanned out 15 degrees, top guns fanned out 5 degrees—to increase the difficulty of full weapon’s platform functionality without disallowing common builds

Spire reduced turn acceleration to 10d/s2 (from 15), reduced top turn speed to 8d/s from 12—to make it easier for other ships to flank the Spire

Squid back gun turn inwards (towards right side of ship) 40 degrees from 0—to make it easier for less experienced players to use the Squid in normal play

Squid increased forward/backward acceleration to 8m/s2 (from 6.66)—to make it easier for the Squid to change position and react effectively in close range combat

Heavy Flak has more damage moved to direct hit for a 70/30% split between direct and AoE (from 45/55%). Higher clip capacity to 4 (from 2) means damage per shot is reduced (115/50 explosive, from 150/180 explosive), BUT damage per second is the SAME due to increased RoF of 2 shots/s (from  0.8 ), and reduced reload time of 4.5s (from 5), reduced camera shake—to increase ease of use in both range (more damage in direct for within arming distance shots) and aiming (more shots to judge arc before reload)

Lochnagar Shot reduced clip size reduction to -50% from reduction to 1 shot, reduced rotation speed reduction to -80% from -90%, changed damage to gun model so that is deals proportional damage per shot until gun is destroyed e.g. if gun has 2 shots then each shot deals 50% damage vs a gun that has 4 shots were each shot deals 25% damage—to ensure that Lochnagar has use cases after Heavy Flak changes

Harpoon has right click to reel in with increased harpoon force to 1500000 (from 230000)—major feature request

Hwacha reduced projectile speed to 250m/s from 400m/s, decreased camera shake—to give receiving players more time to react to Hwacha volley

Pyramidon hull health increased to 700 (from 550), mass increased to 300000 from 200000 while preserving all other steering characteristics—you said you missed ramming, right?  Also affected less by Minotaur and other physics related systems due to increased mass.

EDIT: Sorry guys, I was given the wrong patch notes. They're now fixed!

« Last Edit: March 12, 2016, 02:22:33 pm by -Muse- Josie »

Offline BlackenedPies

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Re: "When Ambush Comes to Shove" -Week 3 Possibly final testing?!
« Reply #14 on: March 12, 2016, 01:59:37 pm »
Hi everyone!
Here are the balance changes as sent to me by the nice people on high.
[...]

Those are last week's changes