Author Topic: Sunday testing release notes.  (Read 24664 times)

Offline Richard LeMoon

  • Muse Games
  • Salutes: 284
    • [Muse]
    • 33 
    • 45
    • 45 
    • View Profile
Re: Sunday testing release notes.
« Reply #45 on: February 27, 2016, 10:53:54 pm »
This is exactly the reason I argued against reducing the original arcs of the Minotaur. It was almost as good as the Lumberjack in upwards arc, and could somewhat defend a Galleon or Spire from blenders. Then it was nerfed to hell and turned into a long range disrupter, then nerfed again so it is not even very good at that. Why you hate Galleons so much, Muse? Now to compensate further, the guns have been splayed more on the Mobula....

Training wheels for everything. Replace side guns on Goldfish with waterwings.

Offline Solidusbucket

  • Member
  • Salutes: 93
    • [SkBo]
    • 29 
    • 45
    • 45 
    • View Profile
Re: Sunday testing release notes.
« Reply #46 on: February 28, 2016, 12:15:51 am »
A lot of hate going out. This game is still gonna be good. The gravity patch sounds like it is going to screw some things up but nothing a buff to drogue chute and hydrogen couldn't fix, right?

Offline Byron Cavendish

  • Member
  • Salutes: 89
    • [TB]
    • 21 
    • 31
    • 45 
    • View Profile
    • The Brotherhood
Re: Sunday testing release notes.
« Reply #47 on: February 28, 2016, 12:45:27 am »
Ehh, I don't really think the galleon is too weak right now tbh. The heavy use of mobulas in the meta means that the galleon's reliable output of hades and lumberjack damage does really well against mobula at midrange. You can see this by watching the Cronus League today, with Team Predators taking a galleon a number of times against mobulas  with great results. The galleons main benefit is dat lumberjack. Lumberjack counters the idea of blending down the galleon because as long as its ally is nearby and the galleon is turned in the right direction, lj has ridiculous upwards arcs and can aid their ally and turn the tide, thereby saving themselves. Unlike on the goldfish or spire, where when you are blending down you can easily rammed or killed, galleon can tank for a while and still help its ally with lumberjack. I haven't actually tested what the gravity means in terms of survivability for the Galleon, but if being on the ground gets you killed very fast and the galleon can't tank, that's a massive nerf. Apparently I read that at height ceiling of dunes you fall nearly to the ground in one rebuild time? That is way too much.

But honestly, I don't understand the need for gravity anyway. What is it trying to balance? Is it trying to balance mobula by making it fall faster? That doesn't make sense because Mobula is extremely light, and why would you use a game wide balance for one ship? It's just like they looked at what mechanic they had for gravity and thought, "why the hell not". If this gravity patch does go through I will expect to see caronades everywhere again, and just like that we're back to people complaining about the blending meta.

We're not talking about current build galleons. While needing a very skilled and coordinated crew, they can be viable. I am talking specifically about the gravity change with the squid change. Have you seen how fast a galleon drops now? A squid can easily position on a galleons blind spot and blend it. With the gravity change one blend will remove him from the fight so they can 2v1, two blends and he's grinding on the ground. Mobulas are not the issue. Lumberjacks are not, and will not counter the squid, or even a blenderfish with this gravity change. That is, and has been the galleons weakness, since pretty much GOIO's beta. So this gravity change basically enhances the galleons primary weakness (indirect nerf). Again, I don't think scrapping the gravity thing is the answer, I like it. The issue is the galleon's counter blending defense; it has none. Either the heavy carronade, artemis, or hwacha need to be able to aim above its own balloon now to fix this.

Offline Richard LeMoon

  • Muse Games
  • Salutes: 284
    • [Muse]
    • 33 
    • 45
    • 45 
    • View Profile
Re: Sunday testing release notes.
« Reply #48 on: February 28, 2016, 01:16:57 am »
Would a possible positioning change of some of the gun mounts fix this problem, similar to the tipped up angles on the Crusader? Though, I do get a little seasick firing those guns.  I would also add a crow's nest gun on the Galleon right side.

Changing the buff to improve gun angles instead of stamina would definitely help. Arc shifting ammo would as well. Along with 'lefty' and 'righty' ammo types, have 'Airburst' which shifts the angle of guns up quite high, reduces side to side arcs, and shortens arming time. Buff + Airburst would allow guns to shoot at anything next to their balloon (also making gunners more valid). But that is another topic.

Offline MightyKeb

  • Member
  • Salutes: 78
    • [GwTh]
    • 38 
    • 45
    • 45 
    • View Profile
Re: Sunday testing release notes.
« Reply #49 on: February 28, 2016, 04:43:06 am »
I'd like to add that this isn't just a buff to carronades. Essentially, if you miss a chem in a competitive match and some banshee/hades gets 10 stacks on your balloon by luck alone, you're going to lose that engagement automatically when the balloon's down, whereas you wouldve been able to minimize your fall distance now and fire back at your enemies if you brought good up-arcing guns.  This is not a loss because of the enemy's tactical choice to bring balloon poppers, this is a loss because the enemy got lucky. This is inherently terrible for the game for both pubs and competitive.

Muse shouldn't buff balloon popping, everything's fine where it is. What they should buff is the balloon poppers, no matter how fast the ships fall I personally dont have a great time firing and piloting a heavy carronade as I used to pre nerf. Revert the damage nerf on light carronade so you dont need to stack 2 of them to be remotely effective, revert the upward arcs of Heavy Carronade but keep the downward arcs if you will so you can actually make it useful on spire again. jitter and reload speed are optional, Heavy Clip and downward arcs were the only problem with H.Carro.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2016, 04:57:55 am by MightyKeb »

Offline Fynx

  • Member
  • Salutes: 30
    • [Rydr]
    • 45 
    • 45
    • 45 
    • View Profile
Re: Sunday testing release notes.
« Reply #50 on: February 28, 2016, 06:33:35 am »
Few notes about the current state and not about the changes:

Blenderfish is fine. Not very easy to use, but I wouldn't buff it one bit.

Heavy carronade isn't. Neither is light carronade. So carro spire is a poor choice, heavy carronades on galleons are pretty sad, and light carro on any ship doesn't work without second support balloon popping weapon. Heavy clip is used less than lochnagar on guns in general. I think it's bad.

Blender squid can eliminate a galleon from the fight, given enough time.
Two brawling galleons completely massacre two squids. Tested extensively.
That is perfectly fine and as it should be.

Offline sparklerfish

  • Member
  • Salutes: 124
    • [Clan]
    • 45 
    • 45
    • 45 
    • View Profile
    • DJ mixes and original tracks on SoundCloud
Re: Sunday testing release notes.
« Reply #51 on: February 28, 2016, 11:18:43 pm »
All I can say is that the squid really, really did not need another buff.  Like.... REALLY, REALLY did not need.

Offline Solidusbucket

  • Member
  • Salutes: 93
    • [SkBo]
    • 29 
    • 45
    • 45 
    • View Profile
Re: Sunday testing release notes.
« Reply #52 on: February 29, 2016, 12:21:15 am »
Personally i feel like spire and pyramidion are the only ships needing buffs.

I feel like every other ship is balanced.

Offline Letus

  • Member
  • Salutes: 34
    • [SAC]
    • 45 
    • 45
    • 33 
    • View Profile
Re: Sunday testing release notes.
« Reply #53 on: February 29, 2016, 02:31:01 pm »
All I can say is that the squid really, really did not need another buff.  Like.... REALLY, REALLY did not need.

I'd be fine if it was just speed...
But not the guns...

like..
Double Carronade Squid is too easy with that.

I'm all for bringing the Squid back to the glory days of mobility...but the guns...the guns are too much.
Granted, I love Squid where it is now...Can fight against dual galleons if done well...can usually be the only ship to not die...I miss the nimbleness of turning..zooming through Canyon Ambush around a pillar to do an about face and re-engage your followers without a claw...miss those days..

Thank god for Pilot Stamina...(I never have any when I squid.. :V)

Offline Nietzsche's Mustache

  • Member
  • Salutes: 27
    • [IISC]
    • 38 
    • 45
    • 45 
    • View Profile
Re: Sunday testing release notes.
« Reply #54 on: March 01, 2016, 12:26:58 am »
I know I'm a little late jumping in here and I haaaave missed official testing, but I wanted to echo a few thoughts and maybe add a few more:

nerfing Spire turning? WWWWWHHHHHHHY?! That's, like, the only thing it's got going for it, aside from sheer firepower (in the off chance you get that ambush juuuuust so). The Spire does, indeed, need a buff. Desperately so. But I'm not convinced just upping the armor or the speed or whatnot is going to be the answer. The weakness of the spire lies in its geometry. So much vertical hull to hit, all the guns clustered together so you can blindly shoot artemis or hwacha at the middle of the thing and start making life miserable. Ok, maybe an armor buff would be nice, but it'll still fail miserably in the face of an artemis or two. Also, the spire is weak enough to carronades WITHOUT the new gravity modifications. So, we're going to have to think about how to make it tanky AND not die to carronades in an instant AND make it less vulnerable to arts. So, basically the ship needs a complete redesign. We may not remember it, but Muse has sort of half-way done it in the passed. When the Spire was introduced, the balloon was on the top deck - so close to the helm that the pilot could repair it in a pinch - and the hull was down bellow where the balloon is now. We might think about spreading those guns out a certain amount (so shooting arts at a spire feels more like shooting arts at a mob) or providing some shielding (a la the nose of the Pyramidion), maybe rerouting the paths to hull and balloon so that wider gun placement doesn't mean longer runs to repair; otherwise balancing repairs and shooting would be so much harder that an armor buff would be moot). Actually, here's an idea that just dawned on me while I was typing this paragraph: Stagger the gun decks. The Spire is already in the shape of a spiral, so perhaps elaborating that so top deck guns are not at the same elevation and the bottom light gun sits lower than the heavy gun *might* create enough space to make dissabling harder. This, coupled with a mild buff to the armor and slightly reducing the mass of the ship could be all it needs. ... *could* Oh, and someone mentioned ditching the lower light gun? For heaven's sake no. Having the gunner be able to run two guns effectively was the best spire buff Muse ever established (with the reload mechanic where by you don't need to be on the gun at the end of the reload for ammo types to stick). Whether it's reload cycling (like what you do with hwacha and gatling. I've also done it with Hellhound and banshees, amongst other things), or having situational guns (ie a Lumberjack for range and a mine launcher for close range defence), you REAALLY want that lower light gun.

With regards to the squid, does anyone remember the dev app squid from when muse was first working on the buffs to the spire and squid along with nerfs to the pyra? It was ridiculously light and fast. It was the most fun and most terrifying time I've ever had playing this game, especially on paritan. Every terrain bump was worth an expletive, mine hits were terrifying, but the damn thing was so fast I had an enormous smile on face the whole time. THAT was what I wanted the squid to be. Its speed was its strength an its weakness all the same and I bet that would have been absolutely balanced because of this. But instead Muse reeled back the speed and upped the hull value. WHYYYYYYYYYYY?! The squid became less fun and its balance aspects less defined. It became the new pyra.
But here's another thing I wanted to touch on since we've been talking about making the squid more accessible, while some of us insist on keeping it a "hard" ship, has anyone ever thought of having the squid run with two heavy engines instead of 4 light engines? That could dramatically decrease the "Squid Chaos Crew"  nature of the thing while, actually making things a little tougher for the pilot. Well, it would be harder and easier for the pilot, because you could burn the engines harder before you hit diminishing returns (both in terms of actual thrust as well as your crew's ability to keep the ship buffed and shooting guns), but as soon as an art lands on an engine, you're thrown catastrophically off balance. Couple this with a buff to squid speed (both strait-line and turning) and lightness along with nerfing the hull value tremendously and you might have a ship that's more accessible to newer crew while being a terrifying b**** to pilot. Whatcha guys think?

On the subject of the pyra, I've long contested that it should be a lawn-dart. In other words, slow to turn, fast in a straight line. It's always either been both or neither. I'm not offended by a buff to pyra hull, for that matter. With the mobility stats as they are, a pyra will still lose in a face-to-face with a spire any day of the week. Make it faster in a strait line and keep it slow (or maybe even slow it down a little more) on the turns, and you've got a game of skill and planning rather than a counter game.

The 5 degrees on the mobula gun arcs I'm a little up in the air on. The artemis' turning as it is already makes upper-deck arts a little slow to the draw in the release version of the game. That's why recently I've started running both my arts on the lower rung and simply using gat/double art as a close range option. The difference in how quickly my crews artemis fire becomes on-point amounts to orders of magnitude. So, I feel that making those upper-rung guns face further out further encourages more specialized mobulas where the loadout simply relies on the lower rung guns as far as the engies are concerned. However, with that in mind, I don't want to see the Hades Funhouse go away. I don't expect to ever use it in competitive because, even in the release version, the arcs are too damn tight. But it's a lot of fun to pub with and I'm afraid that widening those arcs by 5 degrees is going to make it worthless even in a pub match. So, with that I'll echo what others have already said: The Mobula is a weapons platform. Emphasize this when you make your balancing tweaks. If it's overpowered, maybe we need to think about its mobility rather than making it less a weapons platform.

With all that said, I want to make a more general statement: Even looking at what muse is doing with "When Ambush Comes To Shove", I still think they're making bandaid changes to things that appear overpowered. What is actually the problem is that Muse hasn't the slightest idea what the purpose of each ship is supposed to be. Once they can establish the very purpose of each and every ship, then maybe we can make some meaningful changes to the balance of the game. Once we've decided that the pyra is "The Vanguard To Lead You Into Battle" (which kind of implies it's fast and tanky and little else, not even manoeuvrable), that the squids purpose as being fast and manoeuvrable, but NOT tanky, that the weapons platforms (mobula, spire, galleon) are treated as such and have their own uniqueness to them as well (for example, I like the notion that the trade-off for running spire vs mobula is I get better manoeuvrability where I lose in having a more vulnerable geometry, but in the current metagame I don't get enough to make it worthwhile).... ... and what about the junker? How's the junker supposed to fit into this? The Junkers kind of been lost in all of this because it doesn't really seem weak, but in the current metagame everything the junker does the Mobula does better. This is why I'm REALLY disappointed to not see junker changes addressed so far. Or perhaps a nerf to the mobula's mobility could act as a junker buff. You decide.

Offline Atruejedi

  • Member
  • Salutes: 64
    • [❤❤❤]
    • 45 
    • 45
    • 45 
    • View Profile
Re: Sunday testing release notes.
« Reply #55 on: March 01, 2016, 05:10:16 am »
[stuff about Spire]

I'm fine with a slower turning speed IF THE ARMOR IS RAISED. As it is now, it's sooo weak. I agree with your latter points of treating it as a weapons platform. A tiny bit more tanky and less maneuverable would allow the guns to actually fire forward and a flank to result in death by superior maneuvers.

Quote
[stuff about Squid]

This is actually ... brilliant. The Squid is an engineering nightmare for newbs because of all those engines. Replacing four light engines with two large engines would really simplify the process and I love the idea of it being nimble and thin-skinned again.

Quote
[stuff about Pyra]

Pyra is already shit at turning... the hull buff is nice, but I still wish forward acceleration was adjusted a bit. You say lawn dart, I say rhinoceros. Same idea :)

Quote
[stuff about Mob]

As you said about weapons platforms... I agree. The problem with the Mobula isn't firepower, it's maneuverability and survivability. Keep the firepower. Tweak the other options. If Muse ruins my triple gunner Mobula build (double mercs on the left, light flak up top) I'll cry for ever :(

Quote
With all that said, I want to make a more general statement: Even looking at what muse is doing with "When Ambush Comes To Shove", I still think they're making bandaid changes to things that appear overpowered. What is actually the problem is that Muse hasn't the slightest idea what the purpose of each ship is supposed to be. Once they can establish the very purpose of each and every ship, then maybe we can make some meaningful changes to the balance of the game. Once we've decided that the pyra is "The Vanguard To Lead You Into Battle" (which kind of implies it's fast and tanky and little else, not even manoeuvrable), that the squids purpose as being fast and manoeuvrable, but NOT tanky, that the weapons platforms (mobula, spire, galleon) are treated as such and have their own uniqueness to them as well (for example, I like the notion that the trade-off for running spire vs mobula is I get better manoeuvrability where I lose in having a more vulnerable geometry, but in the current metagame I don't get enough to make it worthwhile).... ... and what about the junker? How's the junker supposed to fit into this? The Junkers kind of been lost in all of this because it doesn't really seem weak, but in the current metagame everything the junker does the Mobula does better. This is why I'm REALLY disappointed to not see junker changes addressed so far. Or perhaps a nerf to the mobula's mobility could act as a junker buff. You decide.

So, so true, so I figured I'd actually quote that.

Offline Nietzsche's Mustache

  • Member
  • Salutes: 27
    • [IISC]
    • 38 
    • 45
    • 45 
    • View Profile
Re: Sunday testing release notes.
« Reply #56 on: March 01, 2016, 12:53:28 pm »
I'm still not sure how i feel about mobility nerfs for the spire. I still want to be able to run those wacky close range Spires, and a big part of that option is mobility. I suppose if it's a really small nerf to the turning while we get a big up to the armor, I'll still manage to moonshine backwards in order to deal with flanks. This is usually faster and more reliable than turning anyways. Plus, a mild drop in turning acceleration while maintaining turning top-speed could also serve to stabalize turning, thus making it easier to avoid that turning "twitch" that makes your hades/lumber/merc/art shots go wide.

Offline BlackenedPies

  • Member
  • Salutes: 134
    • [Duck]
    • 30 
    • 45
    • 45 
    • View Profile
Re: Sunday testing release notes.
« Reply #57 on: March 01, 2016, 01:03:18 pm »
Don't forget to email feedback@musegames.com

For spire I often bring both hydro and drogue against balloon poppers. The nerf would make this much more difficult. -1/3 turning is harsh but the spire is powerful in pub matches with a high win rate
« Last Edit: March 01, 2016, 01:18:09 pm by BlackenedPies »

Offline Richard LeMoon

  • Muse Games
  • Salutes: 284
    • [Muse]
    • 33 
    • 45
    • 45 
    • View Profile
Re: Sunday testing release notes.
« Reply #58 on: March 01, 2016, 05:34:38 pm »

However, with that in mind, I don't want to see the Hades Funhouse go away.


Hades Funhouse still works fine. A bit more of a challenge.

Offline Keyvias

  • Member
  • Salutes: 83
    • [Muse]
    • 12 
    • 27
    • 45 
    • View Profile
Re: Sunday testing release notes.
« Reply #59 on: March 02, 2016, 01:20:15 am »
Hey Guys,

Just wanted to thank everyone for the feedback. As always these tests are not the final version and all your feedback has been noted so we can talk about them internally and see if we can dial this patch better.
We are the first to admit this balance patch is huge compared to our normal style and we will be taking it slow and making sure we get it a close to perfect as possible which means more testing, more feedback, and more Muse time figuring out the parts we did well (like flak) and parts that are not feeling correct yet (like gravity.)
We're going to spend tomorrow talking about the feedback and figuring out what we need to do to shift everything in the correct direction.